VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Tow Vehicle Thoughts

I just had my tow vehicle, a 2004 Tahoe 4x4 5.3L, serviced at 27,000 miles, by Mr. Goodwrench. (Only 9 months old, but has pulled a tall, square trailer 16,000 miles) Also just had the trailer serviced, too: adjust brakes, repack bearings, etc. (OK, I got lazy, and let them do it. Jacking up the trailer is a pain.) Decided a long time ago that Routine Maintenance was cheaper (and more convenient) than "Failure Maintenance"!

I got talking to the service manager, and he didn't really want to say that GM recommended it, but he thought an aftermarket rear differential cover, with cooling fins, and double the fluid capacity, might be a good idea. He said guys pulling big, flat-front trailers had a tendency to use up differentials on the lighter duty trucks. On the other hand, we talked about just changing the fluid at 25,000 intervals, since nowadays they use synthetic in the diffs. Sure, pulling the trailer heats up the diff, but heat is an enemy primarily in the sense that it breaks down the lubricant and allows faster wear. Changing the fluid more frequently might solve the problem just as well, since the synthetic is slower to break down.

Anybody have any thoughts on this subject, or has anybody experienced early differential failure by pulling a flat trailer lots of miles?

Would appreciate your thoughts and stories.

I sell tools at a large Chevrolet and also a GMC dealership.I have seen many rear ends cooked due to overheating.It seems to be less common lately since they push the changing of the gear oil at more frequent intervals.Synthetic is required and I would change it at least every 10,000 miles-oftener if used for pulling a heavy trailer.GM gets a hefty price for the gear oil-and while at the dealer today noticed a $97.00 labor charge (labor only) for the job.It listed as a 1 hour operation.If it were my truck I would buy and install my own-and use Mobil ! gear oil-their truck formula sold at most parts stores.Removal of the cover may be necessary but also just removing the two lower cover bolts MAY allow the oil to drain.Would also record when I did it so if there is a warranty claim you will have proof that it was done.As to the "improved" cover-well it can do no harm.

You should smell the grease once its been cooked-the whole shop will smell like a sewer.

Hey Guys!

AntiqueMechanic forwarded this string to me since he knows I've had experience in this subject.

So everyone knows that I'm a 32 nut and have a 32 Phaeton that I'm working on. But you don't know that I also have a 98 1/2 ton truck, which I use for towing. When I bought my Phaeton in 2000 I did not have a trailer, so I bought a big black box to get it home. I picked the car up at the 40-anniversary meet in Springfield. So to start the story right, when I left home for the meet the truck just about 43,000 miles on it at that time. All fluids had been changed according to the book up until this time. I also had never done any real towine until now. So move forward a couple of days to North Plat, NB. The Check engine like comes on and the Chevrolet dealer will not check it because it is Saturday. Remember North Plat! I then drive on to Springfield and a transmission line come loss on the radiator and the oil gauge give up before Springfield. But I made it there and picked the Phaeton up on Sunday afternoon and everything is good, right! On the way to dinner that night, no trailer for the first time in over 2000 miles, Mom said I hear something funny. I come back with you don't know what your talking about. Any way the truck's going in the next morning to have the other things repaired that I listed above. I also told them to look at what was making the noise. When I picked up the truck they said everything was fixed, including the noise. Well I drove it some more around the meet and could still here the noise. I took it back and was told "that is a normal noise after towing a trailer as far as you did." I said bull****! And made a tech ride with me around the block. He said there is not a single thing wrong. So I started home that Saturday and got to North Plat, NB. with a loud clucking noise coming from the truck. $1700 dollars later I had a new rear end just about. The guy rebuilding the rear end just about told me that they were **** but stop short. Don't stop reading yet I have more! So I get to Idaho and look under the truck and see oil all over the place. The front seal is leaking. So I start pumping oil in the rear end the rest of the way home. I then take it to Chevrolet and tell them fix it! They then ask for money and I say BS. This is on Monday. By Thursday I'm hearing the backlash noise again from the rear end. I take it back to Chevrolet and they replace all the bearings again because I had a bad bearing. Again they ask for money and I say BS.

Now after all this I decided to start using Synthetic gear oil, which was not standard in my 98 truck. Also Chev Nut you can't drain my rear end by removing the bottom 3 bolts, you have to take the cover off. I would assume a 2004 is the same.

So now the truck was working fine for about a year and I was going to go to another meet in Oregon and thought I should have it checked out before I left. At this point I had about 60,000 miles on the truck and about 6,000 to 8,000 was towing miles. I had met a guy through a friend that specialized in rear ends and asked him to look at it. When he looked at it he had to replace all the bearings again. He showed me the bearings and the hard coat was gone in some places. So at this point I start taking the rear end apart every year to inspect it. Ever since I started this I have not had a problem with the truck. I now have over 120,000 and no rear end problems.

I have also talked to the guy that does my work about this problem and his thinks that Chevrolet has this problem for a couple of reasons.
1. The rear ends are setup to tight.
2. The bearings are too small for the application.

What I would do is find a guy that really knows what his is doing and loosen the rear end up. If you would like I can give you Dan's number and you can talk to him. I've even been at his shop when the Chevrolet dealer has brought him a truck to fix because they can't fix it.

Also I have found out that this problem started with the 96 half ton trucks. I have been told that the 2000 and newer are better but I don't know. I also know of about 4 other people in the club that have had the same problem. I did save a friend some money and told her to have the bearings replaced ASAP when she told me about the noise that she was hearing in her truck. Her truck was made about 1000 trucks after mine.

Also I would like to note that pulling the trailer was not the problem. We as old car guys have it happen to us most of the time when pulling our trailers. But my rear end guy told me that is not the problem. He has seen trucks come in with less then 40,000 on them and a little old lady is driving the truck and the rear end went. So it is not towing that is doing it.

What I would like to call it is junk box designing, the engineering department is lazy and does not do the calculations that they should be. I should be able to say this since I’m an engineer and that is the some problem that we have.

I do like the Idea about changing the fluid at lower intervals, but for what your doing and as much towing between changes. I would change it more like 15,000.

That is my take on the subject!
Thanks

The 1/2 ton trucks used the small 8 inch ring gear I believe.This is smaller than the mid-sized cars used in the '70's.When they cook the gears turn burnt blue.

The owners manual for my wifes old "94 Roadmaster wagon recomends changing rear end lube every 7500 miles if used for trailer pulling. (not synthetic).

From what I have seen would still say at least every 10,000 trailer pulling miles.

Don't feel too bad as the F*#d Explorers have their share of differential problems also.I believe both makes use Dana rear ends - the worst problem being they use the lightest duty possible.

My 1968 3/4 ton pickup has towed everything from cars to outhouses in the past 33 years that I have owned the vehicle (bought it used with 19,000 miles in 1971). With 210,000 miles on the original engine, the rear end has been trouble free all that time, and I have yet to change the original fluid in the differential. I guess after 34 years of driving, hauling and towing, I should get around to changing the factory fluid in the rear end one of these days. Maybe I will do that within the next five years or so. :eek: :eek:

Remember - they don't build them like that any more

Man..........ain't that the truth!!! I will never buy a new truck, and if my '68 ever gives up, then I have an almost brand new 1972 Cheyenne (loaded with factory goodies) in reserve ready to go!

Our 1998 Astro van is our tow vehical we tow a open trailer with our 490 on it and, at 80000 the rear end started making noise. We have the van serviced on a regular recomended intervolts so I took it back to the Chevrolet dealed with the noise there was not even a guestion about what I was telling them as our Astro would be the third van that they would be replacing all of the bearings in that day. We have the hundred thousand mile warrenty with a loner car. My 1959 1/2 ton Fleet side use to be my tow vehical but after the third rear end the Astro is a better choice.

Chevgene, you said:
"The 1/2 ton trucks used the small 8 inch ring gear I believe."

Would you happen to know what was used in the '03, 2500 HD Chevy pick-ups or where I can get that information?

JYD, my '74 pu is in the same situation as your '68. Never touched....

Maybe this help explain why quite a few Chevy street rod trucks use a Furd 9"?

A Furd 9" is still a Dana rear end.Furd never made their own rear ends.

Don't know whats in a 2500HD-but it will be larger....will ask next week when I am in the dealerships.

Just a note-a 1/2 ton 1500 is too light for car trailer pulling.

Gene, actually whether or not any vehicle is capable of towing, depends on the vehicles gross weight towing rating with which particular hitch type, and the gross and tongue weight of the trailer and load.

It is my belief that it is overkill to buy a one ton diesel dually to pull a 2000# roadster on a 1100# Tommy alumimum trailer, two 500 mile trips per year, then have to drive it to work and the grocery store 20 miles each day the rest of the year.

The driver's capabilities also enter into any towing formula somewhere.

I was thinking in terms of driveline - such as ability of the "parts" to withstand the constant load.So much has been downsized today and made just adquate for normal use.

Gene it has amazed me to compare performance standards of the 50s and 60s with our modern vehicles that are lighter, quicker and quieter than their predesessors (1/2 ton to 1/2 ton) also the light duty trucks of 3/4 and one ton vehicles. Back in the 50s we used a C6500 2 ton truck to haul a load that is common for a one ton with a 40' gooseneck trailer, also look at the 80,000# semi rigs that whiz by you at 75 to 80 mph without a whine or near the the noise level of the past trucks with 2 whineing transmissions 32 forward speeds and tached out at 65 mph hauling 40,000# gross

I have an observation on tow vehicles. I am new to trailering and had many questions of which Chip was a world of information. Fellow member and good friend Jim Wood and I have similar collector Chevy's, he has 59 coupe, I have a 60 coupe. We both own the same trailers, Featherlite open trailers weighing about 1300 pounds. The difference is our tow vehicles he has a new 2003 Chevy Silverado, and I have a 2004 GMC Sierra, but Jim has a 2500 series and I a 1500. He can pull it with just a ball, I needed the weight distro hitch to eliminate the rear end squat, which Jim does not have. We set both cars up on the trailers with a tongue scale. I don't understand why with everything, we do we have a tendency to things overkill, except we pull trailers with our tow vehicles right at the edge of the limits, if not over! If they rate it to pull 8,150 pounds that does not mean that you should pull 8,400 pounds. but yet many of us do! I can understand the rear ends getting beat up besides being pushed to the max, the enclosed trailers are like pulling a parachute. If I were to pull a closed trailer I would spend the money for the featherlite or by a 2500 series if not a 3500 series truck. I saw the price of a closed Hallmark and they are about the same if not cheaper than the featherlite open, but they weigh close to 4,500 pounds, a few suitcases, a 4,000 pound car and a toolbox and you are well on your way to being 1000 pounds above the rated limit. I had to put a rear in my 93 Sierra, I bought it from a close friend who bought it new, but he towed his 24 foot Grady White with no trailer brakes, no wonder the rear let go. Jim had come up with some great ideas for securing the vehicle and a few extra safety ideas, which I am in the process of installing the same on mine, the funny part is that when some other members saw what he did it was considered "overkill" Think about that for a minute. We are riding around with 4,000 pound rocket ready to launch forward upon any impact that the tow vehicle might have, and an extra strap and a set of pinned heavy chocks is overkill.
In closing, JUST BECAUSE IT FITS ON THE HITCH DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SAFE TO PULL! LISTEN TO MEMBERS LIKE CHIP WHO HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS AND HAVE LEARNED.
Be safe,
John

John,
Thanks for the kind words. I only hope that my experience and suggestions help eliminate a problem for someone. Just remember that the combination is like an arrow or a dart. The heaviest end will eventually go first. It is not safe or economic to use too light duty equipment. You will eventually pay. Hopefully it is only economic and not unhealthy.

John,
I think you said it all! It all comes down to weight and over kill. That is why I lost the rear ends in my 1959 1/2 ton and that is why we lost the rear end in our astro we do not have a featherlite trailer. Larry

My family has always accused me of overkill when I built something...better safe than sorry.

That is why I have asked in other threads about some of the items that can be used in rearball towing, like anti-sway, tongue weight, shape of nose on enclosed trailer, and ??.

I have also noticed that people use a lot of different type tires on trailers, truck, auto, boat trailer (?), what type & size of tire is best on a trailer?

Is a gooseneck safer to tow with?

I think a short trailer is better than one that has a lot of extra space, do you guys agree on that? What length trailer would you recommend for a '57 Chevy?


I would rather 'overkill' the trailer than destroy my car...

With my '57 coming to the end of its' restoration I will have to make some decisions on which type of enclosed trailer to buy and I sure would like to get the one that will serve my purposes best.

Sure would like to see Chip write an article for the G&D on trailers, towing and trailer safety.IMHO

What a wealth of informaion!

32Confederate, I was amazed by your tenacity, just to type for that long! It would have taken me 2 hours to type that. That is one of the longest posts I have ever read! But don't get me wrong, I appreciate you taking the time.

Just for the record, when I started this string, I maybe didn't make a couple of things perfectly clear.

I have had NO PROBLEM with my differential (yet), I was just debating if the aftermarket cover was a worthwhile idea. Sounds like maybe it is, if the engineering is so "close to the edge" on that diff.

My trailer is a 2003 Pace 'Pursuit', 20 footer, with the "over-kill" rated axles, and bigger, higher rated tires than standard. It is also a foot taller than a "standard" enclosed car trailer, because I have some really old, therefore really TALL cars to haul. It weighs 3,550 lbs empty.

If I was doing it again, I would buy the "V-ed" front-end for less wind resistance, although I like the extra room it gives me inside with the flat front wall.

I use the big equilizer bars (yes, it needs them so it doesn't 'dip' when hooked up with a load). I have a scale and weigh my tongue weight. I do everything 'By the Book,' and am within the factory ratings on every single component. John, my cars aren't as heavy as your big (and beautiful) '60 Impala, of course.

I also faced that constraint about what this vehicle is to be used for. Although I have pulled the trailer 16,000 miles already, that is largely because I moved from Florida to Ohio last winter, and had to go back and forth 5 times with cars and furniture. (God, what a pain that was!).

But this is also our "family car" most of the time, and what the wife takes to the grocery store. I did not want a big snortin' 1 Ton diesel for that everyday use. Many people discouraged me from buying the 3/4 T Suburban, because it was "too long" and it would "ride rough."

All things considered, I have had zero problems. I try real hard to make sure everything is Right. I'm just wondering about the need for the aftermarket diff cover, like I said, and changing the oil more often.

Last thought - Gator, I would tell you that everybody told me not to buy anything smaller than a 20 footer, in case you ever want to sell it. Even with my smaller, older cars inside, I wouldn't want any less room. Once you are pulling a Big Box through the wind, it doesn't matter much how long it is! It's the width and height that hurts you.

Thanks for sharing so much, everyone.

Gator, The best way to answer your question is to find some fellow 57 owners and see what has worked for them. As the Guru pointed out size of the car will dictate what you need. There are no shortage of 57's that are trailered.

Second back to the rearends. I was shocked by the price that the dealer charges to change the rear diff fluid! I saw the "special price" on the wall somewhere around $165.00 WOW!!!! For that price I am willing to smell like a sewer and do it myself. My 2002 Yukon is ready, It turned 40,000 miles but do these newer posi rears need the additive like my 60 and 62's? The owners manual just says only to use synthetic. One question about the rear diff cover, could that void the warranty?


Third; I pulled with the Yukon only twice, and felt it to be a little more "bouncy" than the longer wheelbase Sierra, I really did not feel that comfortable with it.


Fourth; Last week at the Area 8 Meet a member who pulls his 68 Camaro with an enclosed trailer just bought a 2004 1500 Silverado. He says that the bounce will cause his CD player to skip, and wanted to know if I had the same problem...... mmmmmmmmmm, sounds like trouble. He has all of the right gear, but as he puts it "I am close to the limit" Remember Jim Wood's 2500 does not even move when the open featherlite/heavy Impala combo is loaded where as mine shows it.
Be safe'
John

It is definitely pricey to have the dealer do the service! My dealer is saying $85, but that is small town Ohio versus NY pricing, probably. Most of the cost seems to be in the fluid. I am considering doing it at home too. Plus with my 4x4, I have TWO differentials to worry about.

I know what you are talking about with the additive, but do not know if that is required in these vehicles. Had a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and it used the synthetic plus a shot of the additive, like you are saying.

I don't know about the "bouncy" problem. My Tahoe is truly rock-solid down the road, with total trailer wieght around 6,500 to 7,000. Never had a bouncy problem. I usually tow at about 65 mph on the interstate.

Guru did you find a vendor for the aftermarket differential inspection cover?

Guru,
I noticed the "bounce" or even sway would describe it best when changing lanes at higher speeds, the longer wheel base the Sierra has felt much more stabile at the higher speeds. Yes I do have a sway control, I would guess that my total set up weighs in around 5,500 lbs.
As far as the front differential, I had the Yukon in FWD only twice, I don't think that needs to be changed also because that front diff should not even be engaged. Lets not forget the transfer case!
John

John-

We have the "full time" 4x4 set up, which throws about 15 - 20% of the torque to the front axle in normal operations. Then of course you can shift it into full time 4x4. Firgured we'd change the front diff and transfer case about every 50,000.

Gator- here is the supplier being talked about -

http://www.mag-hytec.com

Just a thought, couldn't you guys just drive the cars? I thought trailers were for cars that don't run, and driving with a huge trailer sure isn't much fun. A little off the subject but I had a chance to drive a 2003 Z06 Corvette today. Thats one car I'd never want to trailer, it's way too much pure pleasure to drive!


:) :) :) :)

I have always driven my cars to the meets, tours, etc...thats half the fun.
Problem is that some of these cars are too old for the long distance trips.(or too good to drive) :cool2: