VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Mechanical - Engine, Trans, etc no power

Hey everyone, I have another question for all the great minds in the group!!! I have a 1922 touring. I have been working on for a few years. My latest problem is it seems to me that my car has no power when driving. Some problems that I have worked on are ....A few years ago I had to re-babbitt all the bearings. I checked the rings at the time and it seemed like they were good. ( wishing i would have replaced them now...). I have also had a leak in the head that has leaked a little water out on the drivers side of the head but with some stop leak the leak has stopped. Also my car kept overheating. I cleaned the radiator and actually added another radiator at the back of the car along with a 6 volt electric pump to move the water which works well to keep it cool now...

My problem now is that when driving the car if I go on level ground it will run ok, but if there is any type of incline my car almost wont make it up it. I mean just a little incline.... I pulled off the road for someone to pass because i was going 10-12 mph and when they passed I almost didn't make it back up on the road off of the shoulder of the road....When I drove it last i was able to get to second gear but, did not have enough power to get to 3rd gear. It just did not have the power. I am not sure what is going on... ALSO. when working on the car when I let out the clutch with the car in neutral it almost kills the car because it bogs the motor down. Now that is a huge heavy flywheel to spin but, should that flywheel take that much of my cars power to turn without it being in gear? is there a bearing I might need to replace? something taking the power or just that heavy flywheel? on a side note I did buy a machine to check the compression of each chamber. As far as I could tell all cylinder have about 37-40psi. I was thinking if I had bad cylinder, valves, rings that one cylinder would have been lower than the others but, all were the same... is 40psi too low of compression? I know newer cars should have 100 but, not sure what a 1922 car should have. I am thinking too much pressure will make my head leak more which the machine shop said was not fixable by welding. So any suggestions of why no power? bad bearings, rings bad, low compression, need to get different gas, ( what gas do you guys use? 85 non ethanol?)

Any other test that I could do to help find the problem?


All suggestions welcome. And thanks for the help.

Rerun the compression test. Remove all the spark plugs and test each cylinder with each one having at least three compressions. Record the pressure for each cylinder. Then repeat with a 1/4 - 1/2 oz of oil added through the spark plug hole to each cylinder. Record the pressure for each cylinder. Any increase in pressure is an indication of leaking past the rings.

When you had the machine shop look at the head did they check the valves and seats? Or better yet did they grind or lap the valves and seats?

35-40 psig compression will result in a large loss of power compared with the original compression.

Hey Chipper,
Thanks for the ideas to retest the compression. When i did the test before I would pull one plug out and test it then put it back in and go to the next cylinder. Does it make a difference if the plugs are in the other cylinders other than the one i am testing? I will follow your advise and report back...


When the head was worked on they did grind the valves and seats when the new ones were put in.

Thanks

If the spark plugs are not removed from the other cylinders the engine does not turn over as fast. It therefore takes more revolutions to produce the same pressure at the gauge. It also will lower the pressure max. reading as any leakage will have a greater effect.

Remove all plugs then test each in turn as Chipper suggested.
Tony

It is also good to open the throttle while doing a compression test. Are sure the timing is where it should be?

If the new compression test with the oil squirted in does not increase the compression then it means that the valve are not sealing the compression chamber. Could be head or block cracks too, I suppose.

Chipper and the others who have given advice are right on.

I think, maybe, it is time to pull the engine and overhaul or rebuild it or get another one in good shape to replace the instant one. Seems to me that yours is worn slap out.

Good luck with it,

Charlie

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the in info and suggestions of what to do to try and fix my problem of no power. I did return and re-do the compression test. In doing the test with all plugs out, turning the motor 3-4 times the pressure was 39 in all 4 chambers. Then I put a 1/2 oz of oil in the spark plug hole and repeated the test. The compression gauge went up to 50-53psi... Does this mean me rings are bad and that I am loosing compression past the rings? ( thats what i understand from the above posts) Only way to fix this problem would be to pull pan and replace the rings? In doing this when I pull them out I will need to mic the chamber to see if it is the standard size or if the chamber has been bored out any correct?

While I am doing this should I pull the crank or cam out and have it machined? I don't even know what to have done to either of them or who to do it. Any suggestions?

I am surprised that the number would be the same in all 4 chambers and that the rings are equally bad. I was thinking that one would be worse off then the others and would have a bigger disparity in pressure between each chamber....Any thoughts on all the chambers reading pretty close to each other?

Any idea how much this is going to help? I guess after the work I have put into this car and still having problems I am to the glass is 1/2 empty.


I have started to look for a new motor for my car also. what years would fit into my car and match up the with cone clutch that I have now? I think i read something that said 22-28 but, not sure.


Thanks

The pressure increase does indicate a minor ring problem (I would expect nearer to 70psi) but I doubt it is all of the problem. I would check valve clearances if they are close to specification do a cylinder leak test, this will indicate where the leakage is.
Tony

It is surprising for all cylinders to be so low and close in pressure. The wet vs. dry does indicate leakage past the rings.

I am sure that Gene will have a comment on this technique. Many years ago there was what was called the Bon-Ami treatment. A dose of the gritty cleaner was added to the intake of a running engine to assist in the "seating" of the rings. My understanding (I never tried it) is that it helped in at least some cases.

To visually check the cylinder condition it will be necessary to remove the head or use an optical probe. The probe is limited to visual only. Removing the head allows actual measurements of the cylinder wall wear. The oil pan will also need to be removed to take off the rod caps and push out the pistons if you decide to do that.

Depending what is found an engine replacement or rebuild may be necessary.

If the rings are old and worn the Bon Ami treatment will be of little use. I did use Bon Ami on a 60 Chevy six cylinder and it helped to immediately seat some stubborn Chrome Moly rings although it was applied thru the plug holes with an atomizer. It sounds from the above post that this engine should be pulled and rebuilt.

Since you have fairly new babbitt bearings in this block, I suggest rebuilding this block. If you rebuild another block, you'll need to spend all that bearing money again.

Before making that big decision, though, I suggest pulling the head and oil pan off and doing a good inspection. Look for cracks and leaks that would affect the compression. Also, check to see if your head bolts are stretched. Maybe these bolts are not holding down the head well enough. If any are stretched, replace them (1/2-12 tpi). Look at the underside of the head and the top of the block for irregularities that would cause pressure leakage.

Replacing the head gasket is a simple and fairly inexpensive test to see if things improve.

Regarding the overheating that you described, you have found a work around, but the problem still exists. An engine that runs hot will also not have much power. While the head is off, make sure the water passages are as clean and unobstructed as you can get them. Use a wire coat hanger and a vacuum cleaner to dig out rust and junk, especially towards the back of the head.

Do the same (dig and suck) for the water passages in the block that are open. I taped a small brass tube onto the end of my shop vac to get down into the water passage holes and suck stuff out.

With the oil pan off, it is a great time to clean sludge out of the bottom end. Especially the oil reservoirs that feed oil to the crank and cam bearings. Use a small mirror on a stick and a flashlight to do the inspection. Keeping a clean bottom end is cheap insurance for those expensive babbitt bearings.

If you jump into having your engine rebuilt, I suggest you go through my 'Resurrecting a '28 4 banger' thread for some ideas of what you might encounter: Dean's journey into engine rebuilding

Keep us posted on what you find and what you do!

Enjoy the process! Every little thing fixed or accomplished is worth celebrating!

All my best, Dean

For years my 1951 1 Ton 216 would register between 80 and 90 on all the cylinders for compression. One day I turned it over with 12 volts and the numbers were all 110 to 120. So it is very sensitive to cranking speed.

Cranking speed is indeed a factor. That is why all spark plugs are removed and at least three compression strokes are recommended.

I often crank until the needle doesnt rise any further.
Tony

I wonder if it is possible that the engine was put together with the timing gear out one tooth or more?

i have decided to take motor apart and attempt to rebuild from ground up. I am sure as i attempt this many more questions will come up but, i just wanted to thank everyone for your help and suggestions. They are much appreciated!!! The read from Rustoholic ( Dean's journey into engine rebuilding) was amazing. Thanks again all and hope to return in a few months with good news... unitl then Merry Christmas!!!

Thanks for the kind words, 1922tour. ;-)

There is another document you should read. It is Ray Holland's 'School is in Session', where he documented his complete rebuild of a 1928 engine. The full document (250 page PDF!) is a technical article in the Resource Center off the main VCCA home page. The Resource Center is under the Members Only section, so you have to belong to the club to get to it.

If you are not already a VCCA member, accessing the Resource Center is only one of the MANY benefits of joining. Others are receiving a great monthly magazine, being able to use the forum's search function, and having access to Technical Advisors to whom you can turn for advice.

Cheers, Dean

Never seen a 1922 engine so take this idea for what its worth.

I think that you'll find compression chamber (exhaust gas) leakage into the water jacket at one or more places. This could explain the temp problem as well as the low compression. I'd start by making sure that the head gasket shows no sign of leakage and that the head and deck are completely flat.

One way to check this theory is to watch the water in the radiator as the engine warms up. If it bubbles, there is exhaust gas in the water.

Hey Everyone,

Just a quick update on the rebuild of my car. The engine shop said the head had 2 major cracks. They said they were about 90% sure they could fix the cracks with welding. They will pressure test after the welding to make sure the cracks are fixed. Also the block had a small crack in it. They also will weld this up and pressure test again to make sure it is good to go. We found that the cylinders were bored at .020 over prior to this . I think I will have them bore it out a little and then sleeve it back to original size. Then new piston ring set to original size.

Anyone have pros or cons of original pistons vs ones from filling station that are aluminum?

They recommended that we turn the crank. Doing so will require me to re-babbitt the bearings but, they said the people they talked to about re-babbittiing quoted them about $1700. That seems really high. Any one have numbers to a rebabbitt service that I can call and talk to them?



Finally the cam needs a little work also. The machine shop is going to send it off ( up to Washington state) to get worked on and then we will start going back together.


Thanks for you input and suggestions.

Welding the cracks (in block and head) that I have seen done are a temporary fix at best, the weld doesnt get all the way through the cast leaving the start of a recurring problem, I would not go that path but I realize good parts for the 1922 are not easy to find.

If you have it pulled down that far it is advisable to do all that appears neccessary, better to do properly once than cut corners and do it multiple times. As for the re-babbiting I had my 38 crank ground and new babbit done for $1400 Aus but it took a lot of grovelling to get that price.

Tony

I suggest looking for a replacement head before having your's welded. Finding a '22 will be difficult, but other year heads will work too. Notice that the head gasket sold by many vendors, works for heads from 1916-1928! That's a great clue that other heads will bolt right on. The push rods might need to be lengthened or shortened, but that is minor stuff.

As for the block, check out the metal stitching method of repair: http://www.locknstitch.com/precision-metal-stitching.html

Cheers, Dean

Hello guys


I am still in the process of going through the motor of my 1922 touring. I need to rebabbitt the main bearings. Can anyone give me a name and number of someone to call to talk to about this? I am in Salt lake City Ut and would appreciate any help. The machine shop i am using can not line bore it either so prob need to send block and crank out to someone that could do both... THANKS


On a side note. I was able to get he head and block welded with the locknstitch as mentioned above. We pressure tested after and both head and block passed the pressure test. The cylinders have been honed and I have new pistons, rings and seals to install. I also found a guy to work on radiator. He said the radiator had about 65- 70% flow before he worked on it. I went back and he was able to get a bucket of crap out of the radiator and it now has 95-98% flow...yippie!! Hopefully that will help the overheating problem. The cam was sent out to get repaired and is now back also... SO just need to rebabbiitt mains and then start back together.

When you send the block away talk to whoever is doing the job to find out how the want it but I would expect block with main bearing caps attached, con rods with caps attached but no pistons and bare crankshaft.
Tony

Hey I am desperate need of a part for my 1922 car. The machine shop sent my block to Kansas City to get re babbitt and line bore. When the block got to Kanas city they unwrapped the packaging and found that the part was broken in transition. ANYONE have this part??? it is right after the front cap. I believe that the timing chain cover goes around this part on the block side to keep it clean and enclosed. Sorry about the link to the pic. I could not figure out how to post a pic

I think that anything from 1918-1926??? would be close to the same part.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...10201441224943120&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...10201441224943120&type=3&theater

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