VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Vendors & Suppliers - Parts Watch out J&M Machine Southboro - 2X Estimated 11K

Guys,

Warning to all about J&M out of Southboro Mass. I took an 1930 Engine over for a rebuild at the understanding of a rebuild costing around $6,000 +/- which was high but they are well equipped and experienced.

Just got notice that they are now wanting over $11K to rebuild my crack free engine. The price is headed up to 2X what they quoted me for absolutely no reason.

I've pulled the job and taking it elsewhere to get done but be careful about these guys.

The total cost seems high to me but 6-8 grand is probably common. Have you located another builder?

Steve,

I was expecting $6ish and could have lived with $8K no problem but not $11K with no end in sight.

If you have another builder please recommend. I have one other that I am talking with right now.

I know of a builder who does excellent work but I can't tell you he will be cheaper though he will be close on his estimate.
R & L Engines in Dover N.H. www.rlengines.com 603-742-8812. If you call ask for Leo. You can check out some of the machining pricing online. It's a small shop but they have some of the highest quality machine equipment in the business.

If your in WEST coast California, why may I ask are you using a builder or builders on the East coast ??

Surely there must be engine builders in California who do good work ???????? or not ?

For $11,000 you could install a brand new chev v8 350 crate motor and 350 automatic .

mike lynch

Thanks Steve. I'll give him a call.

Mike,

Car is on East Coast and is my father's college car. It will stay on East Coast and used in upstate NY.

There is a rebuilder in upstate NY north of Albany called the Babbitt Pot in Fort Edward NY. Check it online www.babbittpot.com He did my engine and it is reinstalled in the car and running. I have not driven the car yet

You got a quote, expecting to pay 6K and maybe up some.
When you received the price of 11K, how did they explain the increase?

I have been using J&M Machining for years, and have had them build a few engines for me. They are doing a 1934 Master engine for me right now. I have always found them to be very fair on their prices, very professional, very well equipped. I always make sure to ask them what the cost will be when adding anything to the workscope. They do all work in-house, including regrinding cams and cranks, re-babbiting, line boring, crack testing, balancing. I've never had any problems with them, and consider them to be the best in the business.

Just be sure to understand what each task costs up front, when you add workscope to the job.

It would also be good to know how they estimated the $6000 price and if a written quote was given. Most of us would agree that an average price of 6-8 thousand is within reason but the only way to get an accurate "quote" is to have the engine disassembled and inspected. Misunderstandings are one of the reasons many shops won't give out an estimate until after they do an inspection.

Good point Steve. Open and frequent communication is the key. My rebuilder made a strong point of staying away from an estimate until he got the engine apart. I place a value on a reasonable turnaround time too.
Unless something major screams out at him, I hoping to emerge from the whole affair without having to sell the Harley to pay for it.

$11,000 for a 1930 engine rebuild is extremely excessive.

I agree and that is why a written quote is important. It will show what is being done and why the cost is so high and allows for comparing to other shops. Having a price and not knowing what it includes is like guessing how deep the water is in a lake-it depends on where you measure.

I'll have to confess that I called around and spoke to a few shops and prices for a long block rebuild which I was quoted in the $4,000 to $6,000 range. J&M was the highest. I went with J&M due to a recommendation from a club member. I did not get a written quote as J&M claimed to not know the exact cost due to unknown factors like crack repair on the head and block. I also purchased $1,500 worth of parts for the rebuild in advance and delivered them with the engine hoping to defray the cost but that did not work. In total, If I am to stay with J&M I would be spending $11,000 plus $1,500 parts I purchased plus $550 for new block (with shipping) for a huge grand total of $13,000!!!

J&M is blaming the 2X cost increase on the fact that my first block is not re-buildable which they are wanting most of $1,000 for the cleaning, magnufluxing and pressure testing for the bad block. They did send out my carb, alternator and distributor for rebuild which is around $800. Even so, adding $1,800 to their original quote only brings me to $7,800.

All-in-all this engine has been straightforward with no big problems as the head was crack free. Don't know about the replacement block in terms of cracks yet.

To make matter worse, the project has been with them since end of December. I've really gotten terrible treatment all around from these guys. I'll have to also confess that I'm one of those "nice guys" that is often too trusting and folks like J&M can smell that coming a mile away. I need to wise up if I am to stay in this hobby.

I've actually called a couple of J&M customers to ask about their experiences and they are happy with the work and are fine about paying some premium. Everyone agrees that the $11K is wildly high and especially so considering I purchased $1,500 in parts already.

I think in my case, I was just too trusting and too-open ended with them and they saw the opening and they went for it. I just need to get wiser and get things settled in advance. I now have to move the job to another shop which really sucks but I don't have an extra $6K to pay them. I have no other choice.

For those that are interested, I can send you the invoice they just sent me two days ago. Curious what people think.

Hi Geraldo,

Well that explains a lot knowing that your block was not re-buildable. Scope of the project changed meaning unforeseen problems were in the project.

I had about the same issue when building my 34 engine and my uncles 31 engine. First builder which I took my 34 engine to had it 9 months and never did anything, lost more parts than I took to them. I know someone who had an engine at the same shop I took mine too which had it there for like 5 or 6 years. Never did get completed.

Once I moved it, then I ended up paying $8000 to have it ready to install and I had bought all the parts like you did, but there were still parts I didn't know about which were needed which brought the price up. Also I had already had all the accessories rebuilt too, like generator and start, Skipper did mine.

I guess the old story goes, you get what you pay for and it does take time and effort on the shop to find the parts like a new block, unless you found it for them. I was lucky that I had most everything which my builder needed.

But when it was done, I had a sweat running engine!

I guess if you add up all the costs for building a complete running engine, we would all be in the same ball park. Just need to define what parts are being restored. I must have well over $1500 in my 32 engine right now and I just have the head and starter and generator done. Forgot the distributor. I bet I will have well over $10000 when I have the complete assembly with all accessories restored for show.

Good luck at your next shop, sorry about your problems with J&M.

The bad block doesn't really explain the cost overruns. If I stay on my current course, I'm in for $13K and need to find another way to get it done. I will try to get a short block done at another shop and then do all the assembly and painting myself. This will not be a show car. I got myself into a mess and trying to figure out what to do.

The cleaning and block checking should have been the first thing done and included in the original estimate. The cleaning, testing and magnafluxing for one block at $1000 does seem high. I would hope you have some type of guarantee on the "new" block.

" Even so, adding $1,800 to their original quote only brings me to $7,800."
I asked earlier, will ask here again.
Unless I've missed something big, you are speaking of $7,800.
Where does the total of $11,000 enter into the pic, from the J & M machine shop ?

Ask J&M not us. None of us will know why they quoted or priced what they did or will do. They might have made a mistake one way or another. I sympathize with you as I have rebuilt several '31-'32 engines that cost a fraction of what you have been quoted. Of course I have horded parts for the past 40+ years to be able to rebuild them.

Folks,

I had a chance to dig deeper and compared prices with another reputable builder that itemizes each and every service they offer. I noted that $600 extra cost came just from the Bake/Blast engine cleaning cycle. I will do a full breakdown and get some more prices as I want to know where things went wrong as well.

The price breakdown for all the work done by J&M is as follows and happy to send you the invoice they sent me. Here is the breakdown:

$10,500 (which includes $700 in starter,carb, generator and distributor rebuid costs). I mailed the components to each rebuilders and had them drop ship to J&M. This price also includes $250 for pistons, $100 for rings and $200 for a gasket set. They also would buy the valves and forgot the $amount for those.

$1,622.00 in parts I purchased and delivered to J&M

$558 for new block I found, paid for and shipped to J&M

Grand total: $12,680

I am moving my project to another shop tomorrow and J&M is insisting on keep the full $3,000 I paid already and all I will get for that is the following:

- One engine head baked/blasted, maged and pressure tested
- One block bake/blasted, maged and pressure tested
- One re-ground cam
- One cleaned and maged crank
- One resurfaced flywheel
- One rebuilt clutch

Since there is no more trust between us, it is better to cut my losses and get to a shop that can work with me on pricing and scope of work.

I have mixed feelings about furthering this discussion. I finally decided to attempt to use it to educate others.

One question that has consistently come to mind is what is the "Shop rate" for J&M (or any other shop for that matter)? Is each operation given a standard cost or do they determine the amount of time required and apply an hourly rate? Another, Do they use the actual price that they pay for parts (plus shipping) or the retail or published price? Auto repair shops typically obtain parts at a significant discount (up to 40% off retail) (and often have them delivered at no additional cost) but charge the customer retail. For that reason they often discourage customer supplying parts.

I got my engine back this morning. A friend bailed me out. I think we can close the discussion. John and Michael were civil and helpful to my buddy and all went well in retrieving the project.

One point of clarification in previous email: The $3,000 I paid to J&M also includes $900 in accessory rebuilds and shipping. The total I paid them for their time is $2,100.00.

I think the lesson learned is get everything possible up front in terms of scope of work and pricing. If there are some unknowns, get their shop rate so you know what you will be paying per hour. I really mostly blame myself on this as I came in 100% trusting and did not advocate for myself and let process run free. Try not to do what I did - advocate for yourself upfront and get it in writing!!

Very helpful itemized pricing from another reputable rebuilder.

Folks could use this to determine reasonableness. Of course there are cost of living differences between regions of the country and you may want to pay a premium to someone you have a good working relationship with.

http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/pricelist.html

Chipper is is almost right we owned a shop for 24 years and some are way over 40% and some under. Shops need to make money on parts as well as labor to keep the door open. Many states have laws that you can not go more than 10 % over the estimate without coustomer approval. So if you go to pick up your car and the estimate was $1000.00 and you you get there and they want $1500.00 with out your approval then you would only have to pay $1100.00

Hey Guys,

I've looked over the invoice for Geraldo and don't see any major issues, I think like he said, he needed to get the shop rate and under stand that costs do go up when there is extra work that is needed or requested. With my experience, you get what you pay for. And like Chip said, I've been collecting parts for years to rebuild my engines and don't need to pay the shop extra to find a lot of the parts needed for my engines.

Also I always rebuild my own Carb, Gen, Starter and fuel pump which I'm not paying the shop to do, it cost them time to send out to have restored.

Also costs will go up if welding is needed on the block or head. I have well over $600 in my 32 head right now and its just ready to be installed.

So I need to state my opinion here, J&M is within reason for the work they were doing and process that they were using. There is a big difference between boiling out an engine block and baking and using a shot cleaning process. One process is low cost and you get low quality cleaning, and one is high cost and you get a high quality results.

So my point, be ready to pay for high quality if that is what your looking for. And yes, it is not cheap to build a early Chevrolet 6.

Also always get the scope of the project in writing so you know that your both on the same page.

I'm happy to send the invoice to anyone that would like to see if so you can make your own determination. I tried to post it here but cannot find a way to do that. Send me your email address if you are interested.

There is also a well-done list of prices here that provides some apples-to-apples comparisons.

http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/pricelist.html

RL engines prices are in-line with the costs I've seen on my previous two engines.

I have sent you my Email in a PM. Click on the red flashing button at the top of the screen when you sign in.

Steve,

Sorry, I did not see where that is. Could you send me a message to my inbox?

It appears, from earlier posts, that J & W Machine has received high marks, for their work.

Geraldo hit the nail on the head.
Potential customers, anywhere, must request an estimate, as complete as possible, with labor time, labor dollar rates and parts pricing policies for all work, current and supplemental.

Regarding the 10% law.
When I lived in Ohio, I worked in a Chevy dealership.
Back then, in the '70's, the 10% law was in effect, for costs OVER and costs UNDER 10% limit.
Using $1,000 as the estimate, we had to be between $900 and $1,100 OR the customer was responsible for only $25.
It was not enough that a customer could get a financial break, if the repair went under budget.
The State of Ohio found it necessary to give the customer a "bonus", if the estimate went below the 10% guideline.
So, if the estimate, at $1,000, ended up at $850, the customer could LEGALLY pay $25 bucks, and walk out the door, with an invoice marked "PAID IN FULL".
All it took was one "gotcha" incident, then the dealership/shop began calculating all invoices, like the finest auditor ...... never to fall out of the 10% bounds again.

I was looking to get the copy of the billing on your engine. You can send it to chvy32@comcast.net

Geraldo,

Down here you can get a 216 rebulit for around 3K. There are two places in town. One is Auto Machine and the other is Moffitts. One across the train tracks from the other. Or they will do the machine work for you and you can put it together yourself. The finished deal carries a 12 months or 12 thousand mile warranty. Put it together yourself and there is no warranty.

There is a truism amoungst many old car enthousists: Do it once, do it right and do it yourself. Much can be said about that being true. It would be hard to screw up putting the engine back together yourself. With the machine work done there would only be a couple of places you have to be real careful. Getting the dippers in the right direction and getting the pan gasket on right. You could write a book on all the advice about getting the pan gasket on right. Look Gene's advice about that.

At the price of gasoline (with ethanol) you could bring it down here and come back to pick it up and still save a bundle over the quote you were given.

Good luck,
Charlie

I highly recommend Vermont Engine Service in Williston, VT.
Four years ago, they rebuilt my 54 235 with new rings, cam, valves, push rods, .030 over bore of cylinders, reground my crankshaft for $3400. They KNOW old Chevy engines!! Give them a call. Great folks to deal with. Motor was timed. All I had to do was install it and fire it up!!

16 Krupp Drive, Williston, VT 05495 (802) 863-2326 ask for Dean.

They do require the engine out. They don't pull or install motors.

The above quote clearly identified to me what the "root" of this problem was. Without a written quote, then comparing one person's memory to another's is fruitless. That's why verbal agreements are not enforceable in nearly all 50 states.

For reference, I was with a small group that visited J&M two weeks ago. We spent almost 3 hours there. They were just finishing boring a six-cylinder block when we arrived. Then they showed us some hardened valve seats that they had just inserted. We also spent a lot of time looking at, and questioning, their babbit pouring process.

One comment from our group was how nice and professional the tools are. Almost every item is the latest and greatest. Some are computer controlled. The parts cleaner (engine, heads, etc) is state of the art when it bakes everything at 600 degrees and turns everything INCLUDING INTERNAL RUST to dust. The final product (ready for machining) is absolutely spotless. I can see why this costs extra, and why the final job is so much better quality.

Our final assessment is that the two owners are doing excellent work. They guarantee their work and they appear to abide by quoted timelines and delivery dates. We were positively impressed.

The cost is probably on the high side when you compare them to other shops. We couldn't find a single thing that they don't do, and they seemed to be able to repair almost all flaws - from block/head cracks to valve cracks to crank wear. Their ability to ADD material to a crank or cam bearing surface is way beyond a home hobbyist's ability. But naturally it costs extra. The tool is expensive and the extra time is disruptive.

Our conclusion was that if you were to 1) get a WRITTEN estimate from them, and 2) have no major ADDITIONAL repairs needed, then they would deliver a very satisfactory final product at the agreed-to price. The experience of this post originator is what happens when the above two steps are not followed.

Due to our onsite assessment by 8 VCCA members, and the final experience (when the owner's engine was picked up) and our exhaustive discussion with the owners, we feel that this was an exceptional experience and no one else is likely to have these issues in the future if they get the estimate in WRITING and have NO ADDITIONAL REPAIRS added.

For those reasons, I'm going to close this thread since it doesn't identify an ongoing issue with this vendor.

If you want to continue to discuss ENGINE REBUILDS (lessons learned or tips), then please begin a new thread.

This one is now locked.