VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1946-1948 216 rebuid

I live in Danbury, Wisconsin(NW Wisconsin)and am looking for a mechanic that can rebuild a 216 engine out of my 47 Chevy. The engine has about 36,000 original miles on it but does need to be rebuilt. Thanks ART

Are you going to take the engine out yourself or do you need someone to pull the engine and do the rebuild? If you shoot me a email I can get you some contacts for the area.

If the 36,000 is original I would consider an engine overhaul as it was done years ago. The engine was left in the chassis and overhauled. They ground the valves, replaced the rings , fit new pins, adjusted the rod and main bearings. With the normal parts the job cost $77.00 + any extras such as exhaust valves.
I would also replace the timing gears for the reasons found in several threads here lately.
Now up on disassembly if any problems are found I would then yank out the engine and have it rebuilt.
From what I have seen rebuilders just screw up these engines.
They often used oil due to the oil return holes in the rings and ring groves being plugged up with carbon.

I see you are retired so I think I would take the time and pull the engine. We should be able to help with your questions, and there are plenty of old posts describing do's and don't.

Before you take the engine out please describe why you think your engine needs rebuilding?

Like Gene suggests a lot of bad things can happen in a rebuild. Some of them are monitory, some are caused by the experience of the the rebuilder, and some the time it takes to get your engine rebuilt.

Good luck, Mike

That should be LACK of experiance of the builder.

I was going to say the same thing....

Yes...It can be a little scary...I wouldn't trust a youngster...

A couple of things with the engine:
1) It does use oil - no matter how I set the carb or the timing it still sends a blue cloud out the tail pipe - also, when driving the car and then taking your foot off the accelerator it emits blue smoke.
2) Everything I can put on the engine is new except work on the engine itself - new wires - plugs - distributor - carb is new , etc. The engine still wants not to idle what I feel is correctly. I have done all the adjusting to timing - carb and it still "chugs" a little. Your recommendation will be regarding the carb. Yes, I did get it from back to the 40's or the filling station. Thanks for your imput.

The "chugging" as you say, may be an unevenness in the idle speed, due to a vacuum leak at intake to head, or at carb base.

Probably a mute point, at this juncture though, if the engine will be disassembled anyway, to be rebuilt ..... and to correct the "blue smoke issue".

Finding a "216 / 235" experienced guy to rebuild your 216 is important. To be an engine rebuilder is not enough. One has to know the makeup of the 216.

A "late model" engine rebuilder I know of, applied the "late model" valve stem / guide clearances to the 216 engine. That mistake created a big mess.

Find the right guy to do your job.

Best of luck, with your engine project.

Seems to me that 36K is a rather low mileage engine.

I would favor Gene's recommendation of pulling the head and work it. Also, tighten the bearings some, if they need it. Whilst you have the pistons out make sure the oil return holes are open. You may want to cut the ridge at the top of the cylinders, if needed. Clean the ring grooves and put in a good set of steel rings and hone the cylinders. That should take care of it. Changing the timing gears would be a plus but probably not necessary. I would favor a fiber gear on the camshaft if replacing it.

Send your carburetor to American Carbureters in Jacksonville FL for a rebuild. They guarantee their rebuilds for life. Nice folks.

Rebuild the fuel pump or get a new one.
Rebuild the starter or service it. New brushes, clean commutator, etc.
Rebuild the generator. Ditto
Get a new set of points, condenser and spark plugs

I wouldn't think you would need a rebuild, just an overhaul. Shade-tree stuff.

Back to the pistons. Just ease them out from the top and make sure you don't disturb the shims. With only 36K miles, the fit is, still more than likely, within tolerances. If so, don't mess with them. Button them back up just like they came out.

All the other advice was pretty much right on, also. Your call.

Charlie

Also, as with my experience, the rope rear seal was a huge issue. You need to be sure whoever has a complete understanding of the rear main seal.

If you decide to have the engine rebuilt make sure you do replace the rear seal with an original asbestos seal. Some are still around and they turn up on ebay or a supplier in Canada. When I see one cheap I have a tendency to buy it. I now have four so would be glad to sell you one set. We have had a lot of discussions about the seals and engine rebuilds. Let us know if you need help finding old posts on the topic.

Good luck, Mike

P.S. Do you have a heated garage and the tools to pull the engine yourself?

First I would do a compression test. Low power and rough idle is an indicaion of burnt exhaust valves.
Smoking could be caused by oil running down the valve guides or worn. stuck, or carboned-up oil rings (no test for that) -or- oil running down the loose valve guides. The 1947 engine did not have seals to prevent oil from running down the guides. They had metal caps that sat on top of the valve spring retainers that deflected the oil away. Often these caps were removed (due to causing excessive valve noise) but then the oil had a direct path to run down the guide. This can be observed by removing the valve cover and see if they are present.
If you check it out step by step we could coach you along.

I would like to add. When I started in the Chevrolet dealership in 1950 we had a many 1946 and 1947 with 35,000 to 40,000 miles coming in with high oil consumption. They were cars driven slow on short trips where the engine and oil never got warmed up. This caused the rings/pistons to carbon-up. Also by that mileage they often needed a valve job. The normal practice was to give the engine a complete overhaul. The experianced mechanic could turn one out in 8 hours, including adjusting the mains and rods, fitting new pins, cleaning the carbon and sludge, grinding the valves and tuning the engine. Usually the engine would then get up to 85,000 mils and still be running good but the value of the car was next to nothing, car looked obsolete, and was a back row special.

I have checked several times for vacuum leaks. Please update me as to where exactly to check for these types of leaks. By the way, the starter is new - the generator has been rebuilt - there are new spark plugs and wires installed on the engine as well. The carb is a newly rebuilt.

The blue smoke and the rough idle are the two problems that I am having. Thanks again for all the help.

As I mentioned earlier it is very possible that the rough idle is caused by bad valves. Do a compression test.
To check for a vacuum leak warm up the engine. Then pull out the choke and observe if the engine smooths out. If it does you have a vacuum leak. Posible causes (if the carb. was rebuilt correctly) is the insulator block under the carb cracked, intake manifold to head gaskets leaking, wipper hose cracked, vacuum hose to vaccum shift can leaking, vacuum advance diaaphragm leaking.
Dirt in the carb. low speed jet......

Looks like I have a compression of 85 on one and the rest are 95 or better. Had this done at my friends repair service.

I think we all need to read our manuals carefully on compression before deciding on rebuilding our engines?

1941 manual article on Compression

Thanks, Mike

The generally low compression readings indiactes the compression rings probably are bad (worn, lost tension or stuck). The low cylinder a burnt exhaust valve causing rough idle adn poor low speed performance.
The smoking you mentioned = oil ring problesms (worn, low tension, plugged with carbon).
If the mileage is correct and nothing major has ever been done to the engine you need an overhaul job.

But who - in this day and age - knows how to rebuild a 216 engine and do it RIGHT?

Hi, send me a message with your phone number. I'll give you a call with some information. Don

In a rebuild it is part of your responsibility to learn how to do it right. You become the expert as you micromanage the process. It will be your $4000 dollars that pays the bill, your headache when things do not work out. Gene and others, your manual, your research, your choice of a machine shop, your luck, your parts supplier, that will make for a successful rebuild.

You need to create a diary of questions with multiple check lists. You need to, up front, establish the rapport you want with your builder. Plan on visiting a shop a couple of times before making a decision, and do check out references.

Where should you start?

1) You read your manual on engine repairs and take notes of things you want to ask the rebuilder. You provide a copy of the manual to the rebuilder, for reference.

2) You follow up by doing Keyword Searches on our web site. We have an index with over 10 years of posts and hundreds of years of experience behind them. The index is finicky but can and must be mastered by you. When things do not make sense post questions for clarification.

3) You Identify the potential rebuilders.

A friend recommended a rebuilder 400 miles away. Being a control freak and a wonderer I called and talked to the shop to ascertain their true experience. I wanted to know how often they rebuilt 216's could they give me some references, what was their turn around time? I wasn't into the concept of dropping something off and picking it up X months later so I didn't seriously consider using them for the rebuild.

I posted to this web site asking for recommendations of rebuilders. One of the reply's came from a gentleman saying I had one of the best machine shops in Michigan 20 miles from my house. So I called ahead and scheduled a visit.

I ended checking out 3 shops in my immediate area. One shop was basically into racing and more modern engine rebuilds, but wanted to get into rebuilding older engines. The shop was meticulous, the 3 employees were all in freshly pressed uniform shirts, they sent out their machining, and did everything that a garage does for normal automotive repairs, so they would be fitting my work in around oil changes and radiator flushes. A friend had just had his 54's Buick engine rebuilt there in about 6 months, and was satisfied with the work and they had treated this all original Black car, with a Continental Kit and various unique updates with a lot of special care. Have you thought of a shop where you leave your car off and they remove the engine and store the car for you while they do the work or you tow your car home and store it?

Another business less than 5 miles away had a good shop where Don Harbron a local VCCA member of national renown has his work done. The shop was dark, well worn, with two very experienced machinists. All the machine work I had done their previously was fast and well done. The mom and pop shop was part of a nationally affiliated chain of parts stores, but was being bought out by another chain. I didn't want to get caught in a management/ownership change, and I didn't fell comfortable looking at the meager facilities. One guy was block sanding the bottom of a head. I wondered if that was their idea of machining a head or block? I had them hot tank and Magnifluxed a head I wanted to use on my rebuild. When I got it home I decided to run about 90 pounds of compressed air through the water jacket in the head. It took about an hour to clean out the debris. That finished me off from using them. When I took the head to the shop I settled on, they insisted, on rechecking the head for cracks. I got a call from them a day later. They had found cracks and said the head was unusable. I went to the shop and they showed me the cracks. They had used a different system of checking for cracks. The cracks were obvious in the black light they shined on the head.

The shop I settled on was a large Carquest regional machine shop. Well lite, clean, men in pressed shirts, a lot of specialized equipment. I visited, talked to the shop foreman, and had a complete tour. I asked my questions. I called their references, and the work was always highly rated, the but was that it took them a long time. I did the dance with them for over a year. The phone calls, the visits, the donuts. In the end I think I got a good engine rebuild, I drove the car for 5 months and then pulled the engine to do body work. The engine has sat under my stairs for the last year in my heated garage. ONLY TIME WILL TELL, about when the car gets back on the road and when the engine gets enough miles on it to know it is a good rebuild?

4) You decide the extent of your rebuild to be covered later.

I think I might try to pull some more advice together but doing a Keyword Search using the terms +engine +rebuild and using Mike Buller under the Display Name Search field will cover a lot of my experiences.

Good luck, Mike

Finding vacuum leaks ...... take a hand held propane torch, turn the propane on, but DO NOT LIGHT THE PROPANE FLAME.

With the engine running, at idle speed and the propane gas coming out of the nozzle, move the nozzle close to the base of the carb, then move the nozzle close to the cylinder head and intake manifold connection.

IF the engine idle speed increases, while the nozzle is at a specific location, you have found a vacuum leak. The propane gas ..... at the source of the leak, will cause engine RPM to increase.

Propane will find the smallest vacuum leak. Other applications, such as soapy water will also detect some leaks, but the propane, from my experience, is cleaner to work with, neater and more efficient.

Look like donsbigtrucks has engine rebuilder info for you. Yhe key is to find an individual who already has experience with the 216 engine rebuild. No time for a "wannabe" rebuilder.

I'm going going to chime in here one more time. Please note that I have no qualms with the advice thus far given. I just think a far less intrusive surgery is necessary.

With a 36K mile engine, after trying to solve the rough running, I would opt for a simple ring and valve job. Just a minor overhaul and not a rebuild which is different.

Pull the head, get some valve compound and a rubber tip tool and hand grind the valves. Drop the pan and punch out the pistons using the wood handle of a ball-peen hammer. Finish up one at a time so you don't get parent cylinders stuff mixed up. Clean the ring grooves. Slap in a new set of still rings (stagger the grooves (ring ends) and put the caps back on the rods with the oil pickup facing the right way. (This is important.) Use new ring job gaskets and button everything back up. Torque the head bolts to specs. Clean everything up you can along the way.

Good idea to check the head and manifolds for smoothness and straightness. Planing may be warranted but should not be.

Don't mess with the shims. Leave them just the way they come out on the rod caps. Not enough miles to worry about. They can only be just a tad loose and you would have to get into feel and plasti-gauge and all that stuff. They should be fine for a good bit longer.

That will be a ring and valve job. And, likely all you need for anothe50-50K miles.

Back flush the radiator and flush out the block while you're at it.

Don't worry about the cam and its oil source other than making sure the oil supply passage is open.

That is all I would do unless something warranting further exploration and/repair/replacement was call for.

All the above can be accomplished by a novice mechanic. It's not brain ,surgery or rocket science. Easier than setting the clock on your VCR. Well, yes much easier. Actually, no harder than a brake job.

To me, the engine shouldn't be ripe for a major overhaul or a rebuild. Just a little touch up, i.e., shade tree job.

Charlie

Note: There may be a few simple things that I didn't mention but overall that will become obvious as one does the job.

Bobg .. great technique . thanks .. that one goes in the book .