Have you tried shorting out cylinders the see if it changes on one cylinder more than the others? To me it sounds more like piston rather than a rod. You also might try using a long screw driver or broom handle to listen to the pan and side cover to narrow done the area where the noise is.
Dens Chevys 1927 Speedster 1928 coupe 1941street rod 1947Fleetline 4 door 1949 1/2 ton Pickup (sold) 1954 210 4 door 1972 Monte Carlo 2003 Corvette convt..
The first thing I would do is remove the valve cover and see if everything looks OK. Does the noise cange under load? Short out or remove one plug wire at a time and see if noise changes. Probe around with a long rod or stick held next to your ear and see if you can pin point the noise. It is NOT a wrist pin and noise is distorted when recorded. What were you doing when it first started? Sounds kinda like a burnt out rod and the top of the piston is hitting the head or it injested some metal and it is caught between the piston and head.
It has had a bit of a "tap" for a while. I had someone listen to it and poke around with the stethoscope and he said it was somewhere in the top near the middle. I readjusted the valves and it seemed to go away. Then it laid idle through the generator shemozzle. After the second ride it started doing this. I did take it up to about 55 so maybe a rod is the culprit. I'll follow the steps above and report back. At the risk of looking foolish, how does one "short" a plug?
Take an insulated screwdriver and short the spark plug lead to ground while it is still on the plug of course you have to have exposed spare plug leads connected to the plugs.
1.removed valve cover. Everything in its place. Nothing loose. No visible foreign objects. 2.Started it. Lo and behold it is quieter. Pulled each plug wire one after the other. No change. Somehow that made me feel better. 3.While it was running took the feeler gauge to the valves. A couple of tight ones at the rear. Backed them off a bit. 4.Went for a ride. It sounds pretty well like it did before. No rapping or knocking. At least not while inside the car.
Could a stuck valve had caused this noise? I'll start it up tomorrow morning to see what it says.
The ATF quieted it down some. It still rattled like a diesel after a restart several hours later. Went for a ride. Didn't hear anything bad. Seems to go away when warming up. I think that indicates an excessive clearance somewhere that closes up. I suppose I could drop the pan to have a look. Would a platigage test reveal anything?
If worse when cold it is probably a piston. If worse when hot a bearing (because the oil thins out) I would still try shortinng out a plug or removing a plug wire on at a time so as t pin point the cylinder.
So here we are almost two years later and the engine still doesn't sound right. Here's a recap: 1-Tried to isolate the noise by shorting out plugs. No noticeable difference. 2-The sharp metallic noise is still there upon startup. I suspect Gene may be right about something rattling on top of a piston. 3-the other day, I took a long (20 miles) "fast" (55 mph) ride and twice while slowing down on the overrun a rapping sound a bit like a hammer drill. 4.the few times I drove it since (abysmal weather) it seems to get worse.
So I plan to open it up.I can check for loose parts in a cylinder by removing the head. I suppose I could check bottom end clearances with plastigage (if it still exists). What about pistons? I guess they'd have to removed and miked?
What I'm looking for is a sequence of elimination starting with the easier test proceeding to a total dismantle if need be. And what should I have on hand just in case?
Would it help if I went for a ride with a passenger equipped with a recording device?
Last question....maybe....try it. If it was a piston would make noise when cold and go away when hot. Is a push rod hitting the side cover? Run some ATF throg the carb. with engine runnning at fast idle. Did you install the helper springs on top of the lifters? Is something loose in that hardware?
Plastigage is stil available but I would ude the 1934 shop manual preceedure.Rods will be quiet with the cold thick oil and noisey with hot thin oil.
If by "overrun" you mean when the engine is "unloaded" then the knock is probably a rod. I've had 2 rods knock over the years and both knocked when the engine was unloaded (not pulling). I was fortunate in both cases as I was able to adjust the rods by removing shims. I would take a quick look at the rods. You don't want to beat up your crankshaft.
Last question....maybe....try it. If it was a piston would make noise when cold and go away when hot. Is a push rod hitting the side cover? Run some ATF throg the carb. with engine runnning at fast idle. Did you install the helper springs on top of the lifters? Is something loose in that hardware?
Plastigage is stil available but I would ude the 1934 shop manual preceedure.Rods will be quiet with the cold thick oil and noisey with hot thin oil.
That would mean removing them all & testing them one by one right?
If by "overrun" you mean when the engine is "unloaded" then the knock is probably a rod. I've had 2 rods knock over the years and both knocked when the engine was unloaded (not pulling). I was fortunate in both cases as I was able to adjust the rods by removing shims. I would take a quick look at the rods. You don't want to beat up your crankshaft.
Yes that is what I meant. Slowing down from speed with the foot off the gas.How did you find the culprits?
It would mean removing the rod caps one at a time. Remove two shims, one on each side, bolt the cap back in place, and see if you can tap the rod back and forth with a little hammer. If the rod is fit correctly you sould not be able to tap it back and forth with the shims removed.
"Yes that is what I meant. Slowing down from speed with the foot off the gas.How did you find the culprits?"
I was fortunate in that I was able to find the loose rods by wriggling the rods with the pan off. It's kind of a feel thing. If you can't feel it you'll have to use Chevgene's approach. I, personally, have never had much luck with plastigauge and poured babbit rods.
I could get mine to knock when parked by racing the engine and letting off on the gas. They both would knock on the downside.
Have you tried a stethoscope just to ID the general area the knock is coming from. Top or bottom of engine.
The old general rule applies - mains knock under load and rods knock when unloaded.
I was fortunate in that I was able to find the loose rods by wriggling the rods with the pan off. It's kind of a feel thing. If you can't feel it you'll have to use Chevgene's approach. I, personally, have never had much luck with plastigauge and poured babbit rods.
I could get mine to knock when parked by racing the engine and letting off on the gas. They both would knock on the downside.
Have you tried a stethoscope just to ID the general area the knock is coming from. Top or bottom of engine.
The old general rule applies - mains knock under load and rods knock when unloaded. [/quote]
Yes we tried the stethoscope two years ago.One old time mechanic and a not so old one and both said it wasn't bottom end. Now I'm not so sure. Only one way to find out. Pity having top do that at the beginning of our short cruising season. They said summer might be on a Wednesday this year.
Although my engine experience is with a '28, I think it applies here.
When I checked the rod end cap clearances on my '28 engine, I found that the previous owner had smushed some of the shims so they were folded over in spots and therefore were falsely tight. I cut off the folded parts, cleaned up the shims, and checked each bearing clearance.
I loosened all the rod end caps and worked with one at a time, so I knew each was what it should be. I removed two shims (one from each side of the bearing), tightened it, and then spun the engine by hand to make sure it turned freely with the hand crank (spark plugs out). When I felt the crank bind, I put one shim back in. The clearance for each ended up about .0015 of an inch (as measured by plastigage).
This procedure only took a few hours. Hopefully, it'll find your problem and get you on the road again for the season.
Cheers, Dean
Dean 'Rustoholic' Meltz old and ugly is beautiful!
Looks like I'll have to take a few days off from installing my wife's new/old kitchen cabinets and concentrate on the car. As far as a few hours, at my age that would account for getting in and out from under the car. The actual work wil likely add a day or two.
Just thiught of something. what is the recommended torque value for rod cap bolts?
I am under the opinion that todays babbitt is superior to what was originally used. According to sources I have talked to the babbitt contains more tin and less lead making the end product better able to stand up to load. So from that perspective perhaps nos and nors rods are not as desirable as having them currently babbitted.
Later NORS rods or rebabbitted rods have a higher tin content as well. Originals have softer babbitt so they can capture particles and bury them in babbitt instead of scoring the shaft. Technology and much better roads resulted in less need to capture stuff.
Ordered a .010 rod just in case. I guess we can ream it to stock if need be. Meanwhile I have asked permission to take 2-3 days off from kitchen cabinet installation to devote to this most important task. She said:"We'll see."
If there were shims used when the engine was rebuilt just removing shims to adjust is all that is necessary. Wen new chevrolet allowed .006" in shims for adjustment. I never heard od resizing an under size for for youe intended use. You will find that if a rod is loose it will probably be only .002" at the most. Any more than that it wwould be really loud.
So here we are almost two years later and the engine still doesn't sound right. Here's a recap: 1-Tried to isolate the noise by shorting out plugs. No noticeable difference. 2-The sharp metallic noise is still there upon startup. I suspect Gene may be right about something rattling on top of a piston. 3-the other day, I took a long (20 miles) "fast" (55 mph) ride and twice while slowing down on the overrun a rapping sound a bit like a hammer drill. 4.the few times I drove it since (abysmal weather) it seems to get worse.
So I plan to open it up.I can check for loose parts in a cylinder by removing the head. I suppose I could check bottom end clearances with plastigage (if it still exists). What about pistons? I guess they'd have to removed and miked?
What I'm looking for is a sequence of elimination starting with the easier test proceeding to a total dismantle if need be. And what should I have on hand just in case?
Would it help if I went for a ride with a passenger equipped with a recording device?
Since that 20 mile drive in the June 10 post it has boiled over everytime I've come back from a drive. As soon as I stop it starts spewing antifreeze. Today, I changed the thermostat, went about seven miles and it did it again. It looks like it was running cooler though, at least on the gauge. Is that overfill coming out or is it actually overheating? Could all that thrashing and knocking be causing it to run hotter? It used to idle endlessly without overheating. Why start out of the blue?
I'm ordering a few pushrods, 216 springs and some tappets. The only tappets I could find were at Kanter ($16.50) and EGGE ($14.17).The rest will come from Bruce Bugay.
Once I've changed those and if there is no difference in the noise that leaves the reciprocating assembly. Then decisions will have to be made. I'll keep you posted. I'm getting pretty sick of this.
Pat, Does the loss of coolant start immediately after shutting down the engine or is there a delay of a minute or so? If immediate I highly suspect air getting into the coolant. It does not take much time for the reduction in internal cooling system pressure and heat to expand any air bubbles which pushes out coolant. The likely culprit is the water pump seal(s).
If it is after boil it takes some time for the water to go from liquid to gas (steam). Also if that is the case you should actually hear a bumping or thumping sound coming from the engine.
Of course you know that diagnosis from 3000 miles away is not a 100% science.
Pat, Does the loss of coolant start immediately after shutting down the engine or is there a delay of a minute or so? If immediate I highly suspect air getting into the coolant. It does not take much time for the reduction in internal cooling system pressure and heat to expand any air bubbles which pushes out coolant. The likely culprit is the water pump seal(s).
If it is after boil it takes some time for the water to go from liquid to gas (steam). Also if that is the case you should actually hear a bumping or thumping sound coming from the engine.
Of course you know that diagnosis from 3000 miles away is not a 100% science.
Yes, it is right after shutting down evrytime. Something happening with the water pump could explain the sudden start of this tendency.I'll have to check that. Is it possible to remove the water pump without removing the grille & rad? And where are those seals?
The water pump can be removed wiithout removing the radiator. First remove the fan. When doing so put a piece of cardboard against the radiator core to save your knuckles and the core. It is possible that the baffle in the block behind the water pump has come loose (in the block) and is spinning with the pump impeller. That would also upset the cooling system.
I am not sure if it has been mentioned before but when heated water will expand and to the extent of approximately half the top radiator tank. With this in mind I rarely fill beyond that level on any system without a recovery tank, saves a big mess and worry. Tony
I am not sure if it has been mentioned before but when heated water will expand and to the extent of approximately half the top radiator tank. With this in mind I rarely fill beyond that level on any system without a recovery tank, saves a big mess and worry. Tony
I was thinking about that everytime I refilled it, but how can you tall when you have enough yet not too much?
The water pump can be removed wiithout removing the radiator. First remove the fan. When doing so put a piece of cardboard against the radiator core to save your knuckles and the core. It is possible that the baffle in the block behind the water pump has come loose (in the block) and is spinning with the pump impeller. That would also upset the cooling system.
Now, that is a scary proposition. If I remember well that thing is either sheet steel or brass. If it spins it must be junk. Do they sell new ones? Or do they make 3" frost plugs? Also, Gene, when they were saying yesterday the seal of the water pump may be taking air were they talking about the packing behind that castellated nut?
BTT. I need to know about the availability of the baffle before I remove the water pump to check. There is a baffle in my spare engine but I can't figure out how to remove it without damaging it. The 216 springs and pushrods are in from Bruce Bugay. Still waiting on the tappets. Then I'll get at it.
The Filling Station has the water pump baffle plates. Whenever you need any parts always check the Filling Station's catalog since they have a lot of stuff.
If it is like the '32 the baffle is staked to the block. I have drilled a hole in the center and then used a screw and slide hammer to remove them. Solder, braze or weld the hole shut if you are going to try to reuse the baffle. Probably will also need to flatten it back into shape.
OK, I have new 216 springs, new lifters (tappets) and three new pushrods.
I checked my leftover pushrods (the ones in the engine will look like this)and they are worn to a point as opposed to the new ones. I suppose I should find 9 more.
Now, I'll need a bit of help in planning this.I read both the GM shop manual and the Motor manual. Both describe changing(installing) the valve springs with the head off. I was hoping to do this with the head on. One guy at a show with a 6 cyl. 55 Pontiac said he did his holding the valves up with compressed air. Is there another way of holding them?
Here's how I was planning to proceed. Looking for advice, corrections, suggestions. -Remove valve & side covers -Remove rocker arm assembly. -Loosen up lifter spring retainer -Pull up pushrods, springs, lifters . -Replace same. Is there any harm in leaving lifter springs in place even if I use 216 valve springs? -Then there is the valve springs. Is there a top & bottom to them? -Have I forgotten anything?
The push rods ends are not worn. That was a running change made over the yeas. The shape of the seat in the lifter was also changed if I remember correctly. The close end of the coil goes down. Remove the helper springs and the hardware....the stronger new springs will be all you need. A special air fitting is the spark plug hole and compressed air is one way to hold the valves in place. There is a KD tool sold, kind of a lever, to compress the spring and top retiner cap.
The push rods ends are not worn. That was a running change made over the yeas. The shape of the seat in the lifter was also changed if I remember correctly. The close end of the coil goes down. Remove the helper springs and the hardware....the stronger new springs will be all you need. A special air fitting is the spark plug hole and compressed air is one way to hold the valves in place. There is a KD tool sold, kind of a lever, to compress the spring and top retiner cap.
Thanks Gene. So if the pushrods in the engine are straight, Ican leave them there?
The same guywho told me of holding the valves with air also told me he got rid of his valvetrain noise with EOS, available at GM dealerships. It turns out to be AC Delco Engine Oil Supplement and it says right on the bottle it is for sticky lifters and noisy valve trains. Would it act like MMO & ATF or rather like STP?
If the push rods are straight they can be used. GM EOS has been around for years. It originally was used for new engine break-in because it contained a lot of Zink and extra detergent for sticky hydraulic lifters. It is semi-thick. It is no longer used for hyd. lifters because with todays great oils the "sticking" problem no longer exists. It is still recomended by GM for new camshaft break-in.
Comparo shot of the old vs new tappets. They seem to have the same profile inside.
The air fitting on the bench and in action with two springs installed. I was worried for a minute when it looked like the intake spring wouldn't sit in the bottom of the cup.
Sorry to say you have the springs instslled up-side-down, The end of the spring with the tight (close together) coils goes to the bottom.
Looks like the old ones were upside down too. Thanks Gene. Could that have caused some of the noise?
Anyway, they're all in right side up. However......there is always an however. Getting down under the car to retrieve a flyaway keeper cup I noticed that antifreeze was leaking out. What does that tell me other than I may have found the cause of my overheating? Cracked head, blown head gashet? It looks that air gets in the water passages somehow.
Yes. It has a NOS crankshaft (from Gene), new aluminum pistons (also from Gene), NOS rods. A machine shop bored it to 0.40 , line bored the rebabbitted main bearings and assembled the bottom end. I put the rest together. the valve springs, intake valves, lifters and pushrods were the better one from two engines I had. It ran relatively well then got noisier somewhat. I posted several videos here looking for ideas about the noise .It seemed like evryone thought it was valve train noise. It wouldn;'t go away with adjusting the valves though. So that is where I decided to change the lifters and the valve springs. I installed springs for a 216 at Gene's suggestion. It never used to overheat until this summer when it dumped a bunch of coolant after use. Somaybe whatever happened, happened recently.
Did you build up and re-radius the ends of the rocker arms? That is normally done on quality engine rebuilds and with the new rocker arm ends that helps to eliminate valve train noise.
Yep, that is the end that rides on the valve stem. I had those ends done on my rocker arms when my engine was rebuilt and it made a world of difference on the valve train noise. Also, with the new ends it was easier to not only adjust the valves but to keep them in adjustment as well. Wouldn't rebuild an engine without rebuilding the ends of the rocker arms.
Also installed new rocker arm socket screws and nuts too, along with a new camshaft, new push rods and all new lifters.
It looked like it was coming from the overflow as usual. Dripping from several holes in the front crossmember. I can refill it and put the air back on to see. I looked in the oil and it doesn't look like there is any there.
Getting down under the car to retrieve a flyaway keeper cup I noticed that antifreeze was leaking out.
From what you mentioned above it sounded like you had an actual water leak but with the anti-freeze coming out of the radiator overflow you don't have a leak.
You could be sucking air from the water pump packing or you have over-filled your radiator.
The rocker arms LOOK OK to me. If you saw water leaking when cylinder was pressureized it could come from the head gasket and the leak may cause coolant to run down the (either) side of the block. This shold be easy to see.
The rocker arms LOOK OK to me. If you saw water leaking when cylinder was pressureized it could come from the head gasket and the leak may cause coolant to run down the (either) side of the block. This shold be easy to see.
It was dripping from the front crossmember which leads me to think it was coming out of the overflow.
From what I see in the photos the rocker arms don't look all that great to me. They appear to be worn and one rocker arm looks like it is cupped on the face. If the rocker arms were going on my freshly rebuilt engine I definitely would have the radius on each rocker arm built back up to standard.
From what I see in the photos the rocker arms don't look all that great to me. They appear to be worn and one rocker arm looks like it is cupped on the face. If the rocker arms were going on my freshly rebuilt engine I definitely would have the radius on each rocker arm built back up to standard.
I went back & looked and all surfaces are convex. Where would I find the standard radius? Any shop around here wouldn't have that. Are there NOS units available?
Also I have seen more thread exposed on the adjusting nuts on rebuilt rocker arm assemblies. Maybe some wear on the rocker arm end? I may be mistaken, but are there supposed to be metal washers under the exhaust valve spring also? Just a washer type thing, not a large ring like the intakes have. Also not the washer used to shim the spring after a valve seat regrind.
The large seat under the valve spring is correct for a 1934 with the original head. If the head is replaced with a new one it just uses a washer like a late 1935 and 1936. The amount of adjusting screw exposed depends on a few things such as if the cam had been reground, rocker arms resurfaced, etc. or the valves them selves.
Pat, The radius on the rocker ends depends on the length of the rocker arm from the pivot to end. Most grinding machines adjust for the distance/radius. Anyone experienced machinist will get it right.
Just because the rocker arm faces appear to be convex does not mean that the rocker arms are not worn. I can see from the photos you posted that your rocker arms are worn. If you want the engine rebuild done right you should get your rocker arm faces rebuilt. You have mentioned about the valve train noise so one way of correcting the problem is to get your camshaft reground, install new lifters, get your rocker arm faces rebuilt and replace the rocker arm adjusting screws with new units.
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Most grinding machines adjust for the distance/radius. Any experienced machinist will get it right.
When there is wear on the rockers where they sit on the valve end when you adjust the valves the feeler guage being wider than the valve rides on the unworn area giving you a false reading. Tony
When there is wear on the rockers where they sit on the valve end when you adjust the valves the feeler guage being wider than the valve rides on the unworn area giving you a false reading. Tony
I'll check that with a straight edge. That may well be part of the problem.
Just because the rocker arm faces appear to be convex does not mean that the rocker arms are not worn. I can see from the photos you posted that your rocker arms are worn. If you want the engine rebuild done right you should get your rocker arm faces rebuilt. You have mentioned about the valve train noise so one way of correcting the problem is to get your camshaft reground, install new lifters, get your rocker arm faces rebuilt and replace the rocker arm adjusting screws with new units.
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Most grinding machines adjust for the distance/radius. Any experienced machinist will get it right.
This is a perfect example of Kanter's motto "Do it right, do it once."Not to make excuses, but when came the engine rebuild's turn I hadn't worked in nearly three years and was digging in my savings, so I cut a few corners.I reused most of the valve train and now it is biting me in the proverbial derrière.
The large seat under the valve spring is correct for a 1934 with the original head. If the head is replaced with a new one it just uses a washer like a late 1935 and 1936. The amount of adjusting screw exposed depends on a few things such as if the cam had been reground, rocker arms resurfaced, etc. or the valves them selves.
Phew, I thought I had lost some parts after reading Master Six's post. I almost ran out to look at the other engine.
Just because the rocker arm faces appear to be convex does not mean that the rocker arms are not worn. I can see from the photos you posted that your rocker arms are worn. If you want the engine rebuild done right you should get your rocker arm faces rebuilt. You have mentioned about the valve train noise so one way of correcting the problem is to get your camshaft reground, install new lifters, get your rocker arm faces rebuilt and replace the rocker arm adjusting screws with new units.
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Most grinding machines adjust for the distance/radius. Any experienced machinist will get it right.
Dog, do they need to be built up with weld first or just reprofiled? I see Filling Station offers a rocker arm rebuild service,I asked them if it would be possible to just redo the tips.
When you cut corners, especially on an engine rebuild, you see what happens....you end up doing things the second time and it usually costs you more time and money. The engine is the heart of your car so you want it right which means doing a quality rebuild the first time.
Usually, the ends of the rocker arms are welded up and then re-ground to the correct radius. In doing so the faces of each rocker arm are all the same.
Pat, the only thing I thought could be missing is a steel washer under the exhaust valve spring. Will check my engine tonight, still would not have influence on noises. Also I am not positive, but maybe the rocker arms are hardened on the valve end and if ground down too far the hardening would be lost? Good too weld them up and proper radius done.
Pat, the only thing I thought could be missing is a steel washer under the exhaust valve spring. Will check my engine tonight, still would not have influence on noises. Also I am not positive, but maybe the rocker arms are hardened on the valve end and if ground down too far the hardening would be lost? Good too weld them up and proper radius done.
I checked my spare engine and it doesn't have anything under the exhaust valve springs either. I'm looking at getting the ends of the rocher arms redone as well.
This set of photos shows the ones in the spare engine which weren't used. They are well worn but appear to have the original contour on the edges.
These are the ones I used because they were less worn. However now that you guys mentioned regrinding it is obvious that these were reground at some time, and not too evenly.
I think I should perhaps get the other set done since thay appear to have more meat and transfer the bushings.
They are well worn but appear to have the original contour on the edges.
Yes, those rocker arms are well worn too. Even though they still have a contour on the edges, the center of the face is what matters. Also, you should make sure that the ends on your valve stems are not worn either.
They are well worn but appear to have the original contour on the edges.
Yes, those rocker arms are well worn too. Even though they still have a contour on the edges, the center of the face is what matters. Also, you should make sure that the ends on your valve stems are not worn either.
What I meant they appear to not have been bround which would leave more meat to play with. All six exhaust valves are new. I'll check the intakes which were reused.
I have all the new parts installed but before I button everything up I will lift the head. My son in law is pretty sure the spewing of antifreeze after the few last runs and the same after pressurizing the cylinders during the spring replacement are caused by a breach in the head gasket which allows gases into the water jacket.
OK, head is up. the gasket is the way it was in the engine. Do you guys think the black areas represent leakage? Also was the gasket right side up? I think I will take the head to the shop and have it tested for cracks. Anything else I should look for?
I am really impressed. A super nice car, shop well laid out and equipped, a nice table and clean to lay out the parts, disassembled parts laid out in groups. Would like to see some pictures of the car when reassembled. Keep up the good work.
Yes, that is where it was leaking. If not done before the head surface should be resurfaced. The old copper clad gaskets should have a sealer applied on both sides. I prefer the old single layer dark gray (asbestose?) head gaskets and they do not require a sealer . The sealer will be a semi-liquid in a bottle like Indian Head.
The top close up pic of the gasket certainly doesnt look good and I would suspect that is the leak point. The other end isnt as bad but may well have been leaking as well. I think you may well have prevented a ride on the tow truck, he will be upset but stiff bickies to him. Tony
The top close up pic of the gasket certainly doesnt look good and I would suspect that is the leak point. The other end isnt as bad but may well have been leaking as well. I think you may well have prevented a ride on the tow truck, he will be upset but stiff bickies to him. Tony
Yes, that is where it was leaking. If not done before the head surface should be resurfaced. The old copper clad gaskets should have a sealer applied on both sides. I prefer the old single layer dark gray (asbestose?) head gaskets and they do not require a sealer . The sealer will be a semi-liquid in a bottle like Indian Head.
I'm taking the head in to be checked while I have it off. If it needs dressing, it'll get it.
I think my head wasn't torqued down enough. It took very little effort to crack the bolts and they unscrewed by hand after the first turn. I'll ask the engine shop for some of that sealer as well. I had installed it dry.
Head checked out OK. He told me to check the depth of the bolt holes to make sure they don't bottom out and give a false torque reading. He said he's seen that on engines where material has been taken off both the head and block. Not an issue with studs & nuts.
might be a good idea to clean out the holes with a bottoming tap to be sure no crud is down inside. After cleaning use an air nozzle wrapped with a cloth to blow out any remains.
I agree with Steve about cleaning out the bolt holes, but after chasing the threads, I suggest vacuuming the crud out of the holes before blowing them out with compressed air.
Also, check the bolt length to make sure the bolts are not bottoming out in the hole and therefore not pulling down the head. I seem to remember a rule of thumb that says thread engagement that equals 1 1/2 times the bolt diameter is adequate for strength. More than that is wasted bolt length.
Cheers, Dean
Dean 'Rustoholic' Meltz old and ugly is beautiful!
might be a good idea to clean out the holes with a bottoming tap to be sure no crud is down inside. After cleaning use an air nozzle wrapped with a cloth to blow out any remains.
I have been caught with both problems, dirty thread and stud bottoming out so now I clean the threads and make sure the stud heads all tighten to below required depth. Tony
Did I say ? I should have said After finally getting the gaskets ( the supplier had gone to Hershey), I installed the manifolds. Checked the choke and throttle for good operation. Had to relocate the throttle cable. Since my wife was in the garage I got her to depress the gas pedal. Guess what? It doesn't open the throttle fully. All the linkages are behind the manifold. I guess I have to remove it again.
False alarm. The throttle now opens to a vertical position which, to me, is fully open.I started it, it runs smoothly enough to proceed with the valve lash adjustment. Wish me luck.
Glad the gremlins let go of the throttle linkage so it fully opens. You know those guys (gals?) like to mess with us old car folks. Fortunately when we are just about to do something stupid they return stuff to normal.
Got it so it runs by itself without choke or throttle. Will do another pass with the feeler gauge later.There seems to be quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust. I hope it is just oil spray from the valve train and not some other problem. Do new exhaust gaskets cook a bit at first?
Pat If you spilt oil on to the outside of the manifold it will evaporate off after a short while creating smoke in the process, dont put your hands where the oil is because you will remove it a lot faster than you put it there. Tony
Valves are adjusted, it runs smooth, quieter but not silent. I need to adjust the starterator, doesn't always hook up. Is the dashpot getting weak? Also on the first ride it stalled at each street corner. Adjusted the idle speed and air. It seems to want to bog down when I depress the throttle. Response isn't instant, I have to back off and feed it very slowly. Timing?
Take off the air cleaner, look down the throat of the carburetor (with engine not running) and open throttle at moderate speed. If you don't see a strong stream of gas from the jet then the accelerator pump is not working properly. Maybe a piece of trash in jet, valve stuck, bad leather on the plunger or something else impeding the flow.
Stalling at corners can be low fuel level in carb.
The throttle arm for your car should be straight. A carburetor with a "dog leg" throttle arm is for 1937 and later as Gene mentioned.
If you can visually see that your accelerator pump is not working then you need to rebuild the correct carburetor that belongs on your car.
I have done this when I was looking for what was holding the lever up and I remember not seeing any gas. I'll do it again to verify. Now if I remember correctly, there is a W-1 wizard right here on this forum.I could saddle him with the task. Who was it again? I won't send it to the same person who rebuilt it the first time.
Pat, Before sending the carb off. Try to check for a piece of trash in the accelerator pump jet. It is behind the small slotted brass plug between the air horn and float bowl cover. A small drill bit or thin wire can be used to see if is clear. The opening is ~ 0.025" so can be easily plugged by crud.
Looked for the accelerator pump stream. It was there on the first squirt. The second squirt came out here. Blockage?
Removed the carb and put the '37 on. Lo and behold instant throttle response and smooth idle. Now if I could find what link the choke shaft flange to the lever thing (itty bitty screw?) I would run this one.
Pat, Before sending the carb off. Try to check for a piece of trash in the accelerator pump jet. It is behind the small slotted brass plug between the air horn and float bowl cover. A small drill bit or thin wire can be used to see if is clear. The opening is ~ 0.025" so can be easily plugged by crud.
Pat, A leak at the first arrow is a sure sign of a plugged pump jet. Happens all too often. First clue is harder to push down the accelerator pedal or operate throttle by hand. If the pump leather seals 100% then the coordinating rod (link between throttle arm and pivot with metering rod and accelerator plunger) will bend. That results in really poor performance as the metering rod and throttle plate are not synced.
The second arrow points to the place where the choke lever spring should be. There will also be a choke valve spring. BTW the carburetor is not a '37 but '38 -'40 based on the choke setup.
The red oval is around the slotted plug to remove to access the pump jet. Yes that is the one to remove.
Pat, A leak at the first arrow is a sure sign of a plugged pump jet. Happens all too often. First clue is harder to push down the accelerator pedal or operate throttle by hand. If the pump leather seals 100% then the coordinating rod (link between throttle arm and pivot with metering rod and accelerator plunger) will bend. That results in really poor performance as the metering rod and throttle plate are not synced.
[/color]That describes what was happening, stiffness and all. that likely was what made me think the throttle linkage needed to be adjusted.
[color:#000000]The second arrow points to the place where the choke lever spring should be. There will also be a choke valve spring. BTW the carburetor is not a '37 but '38 -'40 based on the choke setup.
[color:#33CCFF]looks like I'm missing a spring. [/color] The red oval is around the slotted plug to remove to access the pump jet. Yes that is the one to remove.
[color:#3366FF][/color]
Opened it and ran a .025 welding tip cleaner. Not plugged now. As long as there is gas in the bowl I should be able to check the accelerator pump squirt, right?
Pat, Looks like you have things going your way now. As you can now tell doesn't take much to plug the pump jet. Fortunately modern gas as it is pumped into the tank does not typically have particles present. Polymerization of modern gasoline can however produce particles that plug up those teeny weensy holes.
The springs come up on eBay every once in a while. Not sure if iceracer1995 has any listed. You need Carter No. 61-196 the other choke spring is 61-197. I'll have to look to see if I have any. Don't do W-1 carbs for others any more. Still have some parts so I can rebuild my own carburetors.
'34 Air horn does not fit the later body. Has only 2 screws. '36 and later have 3 screws.
The springs come up on eBay every once in a while. Not sure if iceracer1995 has any listed. You need Carter No. 61-196 the other choke spring is 61-197. I'll have to look to see if I have any. Don't do W-1 carbs for others any more. Still have some parts so I can rebuild my own carburetors.
'34 Air horn does not fit the later body. Has only 2 screws. '36 and later have 3 screws.
After closer inspection, there are two spring there, however one appears to either have a broken end or is hooked to the wrong location. I'll try figuring it out. Haven't seen any clear pictures of that area on the net.
Rehooked the spring on the other side of the tab on the outside lever so it grabs it on the way, seems to work. If it proves to be reliable like this, the '40 carb will stay. It runs so much better.
Glad the spring was not missing only hiding behind the lever for the shaft. That setup allows the choke plate to be sucked open when throttle is opened and more air flows past.
The trend in Carter W-1 carburetors is a bit leaner from 1932 to 1949. That can mot only give better gas mileage but better running.
Pat, If you blow air back toward the tank have someone listen to see if they hear bubbles from the open gas cap. If yes then you also have verified there is liquid in the tank, the pickup tube is below the liquid.
Pat, If you blow air back toward the tank have someone listen to see if they hear bubbles from the open gas cap. If yes then you also have verified there is liquid in the tank, the pickup tube is below the liquid.
I clued in on the pickup tube in the middle of my shepherd's pie. So if that passes, I start moving forward. I removed the filter, which was upstream of the pump. Some black crud came out of it when i tapped it on the workbench. it might be some of that which was in the acceleretor pump nozzle.
If the black crud gets into the fuel pump valves it can render the pump inoperative. Might need to blow out or rinse out the pump. Blowing from intake end to discharge end should help. Best to remove both intake and discharge gasoline lines to get flow through the pump and not push more crud toward the carburetor.
She's back together, starts and runs. I guess the stumbling on my last test drive was the dirt in the nozzle. The fuel pump must have been pumping air. I put 4 gallons in and after what seemed like an eternity I saw gas. Hooked her up and a few more cranks and it started. How embarrassing..... anyway let her warm up and had another pass with the feeler gauge. It runs quite smooth but not that much quieter after all the changes. I will accept smooth and try to tune out the noise. I wish to thank everyone who coached me through this and I hope I can help someone too some day.
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Did I say 
After finally getting the gaskets ( the supplier had gone to Hershey), I installed the manifolds. Checked the choke and throttle for good operation. Had to relocate the throttle cable. Since my wife was in the garage I got her to depress the gas pedal. Guess what? It doesn't open the throttle fully. All the linkages are behind the manifold. I guess I have to remove it again. 
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