VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Exhaust Manifold

This is from the judging manual

"Cast iron painting of manifolds
should not result in point deductions unless the condition of
the paint is poor or uneven."

So it could be paint a cast iron color??Do you think most judges would know it is ok to paint it cast iron?

Chef-Chevy, this is always a topic of discussion and some flexibility is needed when evaluating the exhaust manifolds. We all know that the factory did not put too much detail in how the exhaust manifolds looked at the end of the production line. Any light coating that was given wore off within the first few days with the heat. Many of our members drive their cars and because of that we all know the manifolds are going to have that worn look to them. We tell our judges that they should be clean or if they choose to coat them with a protective cast iron paint, such as Bill Hirsch "Cast Iron" and they are evenly detailed and clean they should not be deducted for that. So that gives some leeway for the judge. What would cause the judge to give a deduction would be if the manifolds haven't been cleaned, brushed for years and full of grime and grease or the painting of the surface was done poorly. Hope that helps.

Steve exactly,the answer I was looking for,Thanks
Now that i have got your attention,when there are deductions given,why is the owner not advised and given an opportunity to discuss the dedution and maybe give some documentation..That's why i ask about the manifold,many people many assume that it was painted blue-gray at the factory so it should be either blue-gray or have a rust apearence?Thats if they have not studied the judging manual,which I would assume many judges have not

Due to time constraints it would be impossible to consult with the owner on all deductions. I know it is difficult to wait until you are sent the original copy of the judging form long after you have returned home. However, on the form the judge should have made a note for any deductions he made. A note to the judges: Understandable remarks should be made on the judging form, especially if it is a large deduction.

If a judge has a question about the authenticity of some item, then he should consult the driver for documentation. The Judging Team Leader should be included in this conversation.

I have browsed the Judging Manual, but I'm a complete novice about the actual process. Still, I'd like to throw an idea out there.

AntiqueMechanic mentioned that there is a big time lag between when the judging takes place and when the owner learns the details about his/her car.

Is the judging form online, so a scribe with a laptop or tablet can follow the judges around and take notes? Then, getting the details to the owner would be a simple matter of emailing it to him/her. Technically, the owner could look at it on his/her smart phone while still at the show and before the awards were given.

Cheers, Dean

Some judges do not like to be followed around when trying to do their judging.

Good point.

If the judging form were an online form (even something simple as a Word document or text file), the judge could fill it out in total privacy and the form would be still be ready for the owner sooner.

One small technological step for the club. This would be a viable enhancement for future judges, who do all written communication via devices.

Thanks, Dean

I have had our 31 judged about 40 times in VCCA and have only been asked one question in that time. After I got my forms back I have asked the judges and always get the same response. "I wasn't sure." If they aren't sure they should ask.

I did not intend to leave the impression that the system is not working at top efficiency, the forms go through several hands for quality control before they are sent to the owner. This takes some time and I think the system is working quite well.

PS: The judging form goes from the judge to his team leader, it is then taken by a runner to the calculating room, then it is reviewed by the Head Judge. It next goes to the Top Judge for final review and then to the owner. I think the system works well from a car owner viewpoint.

So what is the reasoning for the owner not to be told about the deductions on site?The owner does not need to be told the points involved.The judges try their best but as we all know the owner knows his car the best!

I do not participate in judging either as a participant or part of the judging procedure. That being said I believe involving the owner at time of judging would require a lot of extra time regarding discussions of disagreement. Quote "we all know the owner knows his car the best!" If that were the case for ALL owners judging would not be required. The owners could just display their cars with the number of points they "know" it qualifies for. That would certainly speed up the judging process as all you would have to do is line the cars up in order by points. Hopefully this posting has not raised any hackles, however if it has (my apologies) imagine what it might be like on the field during judging.

I have used exhaust manifold coating or paint for many years. When properly applied the surface looks relatively close to the condition that one would expect with the paint burned off. If a point or two were taken off it does not represent a significant deduction considering there are 999 or 998 remaining points.

Having judged for many years and had every job on the judging field, I feel a bit qualified to comment.

First I believe that VCCA judging has improved over the years and despite errors is generally the best that can be done considering the time and people available.

In the majority of cases the owner is not readily available during judging. If knowledgeable on Chevrolets, generally are on a judging team elsewhere on the field. If owner is present he can only talk to Team Captain not individual judges.

If an individual judge has a question about an item he is instructed to contact the Team Captain for an answer. If the Team Captain does not know the answer he is to check any documentation displayed on the front seat or ask the owner or have the runner ask Deputy Judge or consult any reference work available to the judging teams. Generally because all that can take a lot of time it is not actually done. On rare occasions a vehicle has judging started, then skipped to allow research and finished later. Timing generally requires only 10-15 minutes for each vehicle which puts some pressure on the judging team.

Finally the judges are not generally the most knowledgeable available. That is primarily due to not being able to judge in a class that includes their vehicle. Secondarily because each team needs judges and they are assigned where the Chief Judge needs them. Attempts are made to put together the best teams possible but compromises need to be made.

I proposed a new judging category many times. It has never received serious consideration. My idea is to have owners that really want to know how close their vehicle is to the as manufactured condition apply to have their vehicle judged at a VCCA meet. Potential judges are contacted and given the vehicle information at least 60 days prior to the meet. They are asked if they will agree to judge a given vehicle. Once a judging team is identified the owner is contacted and a judging time period (a couple of hours) during the meet but separate from Class Judging is scheduled. The judges know what they will be judging so can study references, bring documentation, notes, etc. to be used in the special judging process. The owner must be present and can be part of the process. The vehicles that complete the process will be pinnacle of Chevrolets. Those vehicles and the best of the HPOCF (with documentation of the non-certifying items) would be excellent examples for others to copy in their restorations.

I think your proposal was an excellent one as most I believe have their cars judged mainly to gain knowledge of improvements or corrections to be made. I did volunteer at the anniversary meet in Springfield to assist in judging as there was a request for help. Even though my car (1932) was not being judged I was not allowed to join the 32 group. As there was an excess of volunteers and my services were not required in the 32 group I thought I would "tag along" with them to gain some pointers. As I was listening in on the instructions from the group leader he quickly asked me why I was there. Apparently that was not allowed as I was quickly asked to find something else to do. Luckily the chief judge, Mr. Scott took note of the situation and found a group that didn't mind having a "trainee". There are some items that do not need a lot of expertise to check, such as tire size, and the field judge gave me a list of items and went over them on one of the vehicles. It was interesting and I learned a little about the model I was involved with. I also decided it would be the one and only time I would be involved in judging.

Chipper I like your idea,I'm in

Those of you that like the idea contact your Area Board Member and tell him (or her) to discuss at the next Board Meeting (in couple of weeks) and once approved direct the Judging Committee to establish the process. It will take a bunch of VCCA members to support the new judging class for it to be taken seriously. There is already resistance on the Judging Committee.

I should have also mentioned that there should be a special fee for the expanded judging.

I have seen pictures of the motors way back when at the assembly plants and all were painted engine color which was probably burnt off by the time the vehicle go to the dealer.