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I agree with Chipper. As long as some of the users on this forum continously (for more than two years) do not want to read, understand and accept the many statements and links here from organizations and users having had problems with their different small/big engines most likely due to the damaging ethanolblending, the future discussion here is nearly meaningless. This is not a tennis match but an attempt to preserve our old Chevrolet from being damaged by using a blend they are not built for.
As an example/Quote: b. Mr. Chipper, Why does not this blended ethanol gasoline affect modern Chevrolets?
This question above is the main one in the whole debate and has been brought up by several writers here. The answer is the same as before:
Old Chevrolets (and many other brands, from before 1986) are not built for using ethanol in gas, of any blend.
It is as simple as that.
F.ex. the Nascar cars are based on a special gas blend, so their engines can work at top speed for that car. Try ordinary gas and you will be at the back all the time. Try to fill diesel on a gas driven engine, or opposite. You can see the point, I hope?
So why do we old vehicle enthusiasts have to accept to use a gas blend that in many cases will ruin our older Chevrolets and make them useless??
Because nearly nobody is fighting back to keep even one pump free from the damaging blend in the nearby district.
Why not encourage the local station to keep one ethanol free pump for the car club people nearby???
As I have mentioned before: I feel really sorry for my many American enthusiastic car friends in the years to come when they realize they have hit the "wall" of riding an old "original" Chevrolet with pleasure "for the last time", due to the mandatory gas blend all over your beautiful country. Support your own enthusiast organizations to postpone the nasty E 15!
Game over in USA for me, but me and my Norwegian friends will still be fighting for our hobby to survive in Norway!!!
Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
It's interesting to note that some small engine shops are carrying premixed fuel (gas with additives) for their products. I don't know what additives but have been told that it will last up to two years in the tank. Perhaps in the future we in the old car hobby will have vendors who specialize in gas products for our old cars.
There is lots more fuel bowsers being returned back to straight 91 octane without the ethanol down here. Must be due to all the vintage car restorers buying up the molasses to make de rusting tanks to clean their rusty parts.
Take a look at this.It is by PA. State Senator Pat Toomey. I am working to repeal a law that drives up the cost of everything from gasoline to groceries. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and I introduced the bipartisan Corn Ethanol Mandate Elimination Act of 2015 to abolish the corn ethanol mandate in the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS).
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Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
OK. I got a new alarming message from USA today. It may be known to the readers here already. Nevertheless, car fires are a real danger when they happen in today's traffic.
Can't we just get rid of ethanol? says Jay Leno
There have been a lot of old-car fires lately. I went through the ’70s, the ’80s and most of the ’90s without ever having read much about car fires. Suddenly, they are happening all over the place. Here’s one reason: The ethanol in modern gasoline…about 10 percent in many states…is so corrosive, it eats through either the fuel-pump diaphragm, old rubber fuel lines or a pot metal part, then leaks out on a hot engine … and ka-bloooooie!!!
As someone who collects old cars, and keeps them up religiously, I am now replacing fuel-pressure regulators every 12 to 18 months. New cars are equipped with fuel lines that are resistant to ethanol damage, but with older cars, the worst can happen…you’re going down the road, and suddenly your car is on fire.
There’s more. I find that gasoline, which used to last about a year and a half or two years, is pretty much done after a month or so these days. If I run a car from the teens or ’20s and fill it up with modern fuel, then it sits for more than two months, I often can’t get it to start.
Attached is a response from the Husqvarna service representative to a customer who had only 70 hours on his lawn tractor and they would not cover under warranty."Husqvarna ResponseRichard H., Technical ServicesOctober 7, 2014 We always hate to hear of an unhappy customer. We also all know of the problems with Ethanol enriched fuels. We highly recommend not using Ethanol enriched fuels. The Ethanol will dry out and rot the fuel lines. Every manufacturer is suffering from this issue." I happened upon it while doing some research as I was considering the product.
Just pulled out a generator from my workshop that has been sitting for 5 years with half a tank of normal fuel in it.. Pull the starter twice and off she goes... try that with ethanol. Same generator when I got it had been sitting for a shorter period with E10 .. gummed up solid .. The stuff's no good I tells ya
If you live in a moderate to relatively high humidity area I have an experiment for you to try. Take a small amount of gasoline in an impervious open container and leave it open to the air and outside any building. Check it every couple minutes to see when water droplets first begin to form in the bottom of the container. If the liquid gets cloudy when it is lightly stirred it has absorbed water from the atmosphere. Record the time required to get cloudy or see droplets. It should be a few minutes. Still doubt that ethanol is not a problem?
If you live in a moderate to relatively high humidity area I have an experiment for you to try. Take a small amount of gasoline in an impervious open container and leave it open to the air and outside any building. Check it every couple minutes to see when water droplets first begin to form in the bottom of the container. If the liquid gets cloudy when it is lightly stirred it has absorbed water from the atmosphere. Record the time required to get cloudy or see droplets. It should be a few minutes. Still doubt that ethanol is not a problem?
You speak of an "open container" and its results.
What happens, in comparison, when the open container is sealed, much like our fuel tanks ?
What would be the comparative results with a closed system ?
1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 door sedan / purchased from second owner 6-19-2000.
As Dean pointed out the tanks are not sealed. Yes they take in air as the fuel is used. That is a minor source of water in the tanks. The vast majority comes in as the tank cools after it reaches the maximum temperature. It continues to suck in moist air until the temperature begins to rise again. It can happen multiple times a day if there is alternate heating and cooling, like a partly cloudy day or shade from a building or tree. It is this cycling that can put a significant amount of water into a tank a matter of days. Just think about a hot tank then a rain storm that saturates the air and cools the tank. Same thing happens to the oil pan. Now you know where the water that eats holes in the bottom of the gas tank or oil pan comes from. At least water can be removed from the oil pan when heated from a running engine.
Yes the open container does not illustrate what happens in the gas tank. It does give an idea of how much attraction that the ethanol in gasoline has for water. And it is only 10% of the volume.
FYI, this paragraph comes from a July, 11, 2015 ACCC (Association of California Car Clubs) newsletter:
Quote
Hawaii Bill to Eliminate Ethanol in Gasoline Signed Into Law Legislation to repeal the requirement that gasoline offered for sale in Hawaii contain a percentage of ethanol was signed into law by Governor David Ige. The new law becomes effective December 31, 2015. The law recognizes that the requirement of blending ethanol into gasoline does not produce any economic benefit for the state and the import of ethanol creates an economic burden for state residents.
Ethanol increases water formation, which can then corrode metals and dissolve plastics and rubber, especially over a period of time when the vehicle is not used. Current high performance specialty parts along with pre-model-year ’01 cars and parts may be most susceptible to corrosion. The lifespan of vehicles and equipment can be dramatically reduced with the wrong fuel, and owners could be confronted with breakdowns.
Dean
Last edited by Rustoholic; 07/13/1509:14 PM. Reason: spelled out ACCC
Dean 'Rustoholic' Meltz old and ugly is beautiful!
Why do so many hundred thousands motor entusiasts have to accept the politicians to force us to use and oil companies to blend and deliver gas qualities (E 10 - E 15) making our older vehicles unable to be used properly and safe, without having a "back up" gas without ethanol?
Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
Dramatic decisions from main car makers as to E 15
News from FOX:
There is more trouble for the use of bio liquids to come. At the moment we have discovered that the clear majority of bio oil quantities for fuel in Norway is Asian palm oil, already banned from the market by our Government due to environment issues by vanishing rain forests.
Our authorities have just discovered that the total of the known "legal" bio sources Norway can use will not make our gas blend to reach the E 10 - 15 without really threatening the environment in other unwanted ways. Bio fuel is not at all the best and only solution for protecting our environment.
As to the FOX article on You-tube: Luckily in Norway the ethanol and bio stuff are blended at the fuel depots, not at the stations. That makes the blending better and not so easy to separate in the tank as you may experience in US. But and specially in the long run the ethanol will separate from the gas and suck water into the tank. This will damage the tank, by creating vinegar acid, corrosion both to steel and glas fiber tanks, parts in the fuel systems, like carburetors, diaphrames, etc. creating unexpected and certainly unwanted vapor gas locks, more consumption per mile, higher risk for sudden fire breaking out. Damage to rubber parts, not suitable for ethanol will make dangerous leakages.
Did you know that gas tankers transporting thousands of litres E 85 or E 95 on your highways every day are just as dangerous for people near it as a heavy napalm bomb? If that quantity of liquid catches fire it detonates viciously and immidiately burns with a blueish, nearly invisible flame and will burn/kill all in the neighbourhood. Extremely difficult to fight and stop and you must have special fire equipment to put it out. As many fire stations do not have such at hand they have asked for it but with few results. The solution seems to be: let it burn down till it ends itself.
Why do my American friends accept that kind of danger on all the main roads and highways, in stead of transporting by rail? Or may be better added instead at the depots in smaller quantities ready blended in gas?
It is concerning your lives but I really cannot understand why you let such lethal transport happen.
ref
Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
During these last years I have collected lots of information as to adding ethanol in gas giving the owners trouble and expenses, driving more unsafe, mostly due to the added ethanol and the stronger the worst.
Lots of motor club magazines in Norway and elsewhere in the world have been telling about damages, failures and expenses caused by the extra environmental part of the gas, called ethanol. More fires have been reported, both on running and stored vehicles.
I am not against the ethanol itself or added to gas used in vehicles actually factory built/prepared for that fuel blend. I am not against racing cars using E 85 in NASCAR, but they are prepared to use only that blend which gives them the best speed and performance in the racing. I am fascinated by those cars but lucky I do not have to pay the engine bill for the next race.
I am against having no option except to fill almost any kind of ethanol/gas blend in the tank of my old car. WHY? Because it is not built for it. Even converting to other materials or solutions to avoid the harm ethanol does is not wanted, as I want to drive my car as original as possible. Many motor enthusiasts stick to the same view: Keep them all running as original as possible and in accordance with our authorities' view of what a running historical motor vehicle should be.
I get a lot of questions about my 490 and many people are impressed by the old engineering still working and moving the car over distances the spectators would not expect them to run.
It should not be necessary to force our older vehicles into a situation where they end up like modified half old/half young to still be able to run reasonably safely. So I vote for having pumps around for serving our old vehicles with E 0, without ethanol and I will be happy for the future of our hobby.
[b][/b]
Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
