VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Mechanical - Engine, Trans, etc 216 Carburetor Problem

Thanks for the historical narrative Gene. It’s really interesting to hear this because it’s really hard to find people with your hands on exposure any more. Us old timers are rapidly disappearing and along with us is the knowledge that we’ve acquired from years of experience.

I’ve been working with the ”˜B’ and the W-1 going on three years now trying to get the best performance out of them and they both leave a bit to be desired. I guess we get used to the way and engines perform in today’s automobiles and sometimes expect similar performance from the old timers, but of course that’s an impossibility.

I’ve never heard of a Carter 414, and you know how difficult it is to find any service information on the Carter Carburetors. Not that I would ever use one of them nor ever find one, but if you ever run across any literature on that model I would very much like to add it to my reference file. My only experience with the W-1 has been with the 684 which was the 1949 version

I would really like to keep every thing as stock as is reasonably possible on my 1950, 3600 which means keeping a Rochester on it. Since the Carter W-1, 684 (hot or cold) doesn’t seem to solve any of the problems I faced with Rochester, I think I’ll swing back to the ”˜B’ and work some more on those carbs.

As to the cast iron base on the W-1, one might think of that in several different ways. Yes it would hold the heat longer than the smaller throttle body on the ”˜B’ but when both are running I often see condensation on the iron bases, so it’s not that they are hot it’s that they absorb the heat after the engine is shut down. One might conceder that the latent heat will conduct to the die cast bowl of the Rochester more easily than through the cast iron leading to the percolation problem.

The funny thing here is that I don’t ever remember having percolation problems with the Rochester back in the 50’s and 60’s and I had several ’50 and ”˜51s all standard shift in and after high school when I was a parts man with Chevy. I drove a stock ’60 six banger 3speed all through my hitch in the service in the early 60’s with a ”˜B’ and had one smooth running six, Fenton headers and all.

So Mark, where did ya go?? Are ya gettin' any thing out of this and have ya gotten that engine to run any better???

Gotta go, I hear my “big old wife” rustling around up stairs, that means Sweetie face will be down in a few minutes and I better have breakfast on the table!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny,

I've been reading this thread every day and learning. When the weather warms up a little, I think I'll look into installing a carburetor bowl drain screw on my W-1, just as an experiment. If I drain the bowl part way after shutting down the engine when hot, and the engine starts with minimal cranking after sitting for 15 minutes, I'l be pretty certain that my flooding problem is due to percolation. If so, the question is what to do about it.

There's a Stromberg A-19122 BXOV-2 carburetor for sale on Ebay. The Stromberg instructions pictured show that the carburetor application is for the Chevrolet 216. Has anyone had any experience running the Stromberg on a Chevrolet?

Mark

I have not but if my memory serves me correctly, the was some discussion over at the Stovebolt a year or so ago. Jon Hardgove at The Carburetor Shop can no doubt give you the some information on that carb.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Mark,
Would it be easier to install a shut-off valve next to the carburetor. Trun-off the gas supply and run the engine for a minute to lower the level in the bowl.
This would also provide a way to see if the needle valve fails to old back the fuel pump pressure after the engine is turned off, overfilling the bowl.

I've seen two problems discussed here 1)the lean condition when driving and 2)the percolation type symptom after shutdown.

For the percolation, if you have a very reproducable problem at least you can experiment; Try extra spacers initially to get a bigger thermal break. I'd also be tempted to let the car idle and cool down after a hard drive like Gene suggests. Before shutting it down, try experimenting with some bags of ice cubes.

Try packing the carb with ice for a few minutes before shutdown and then keep the ice on the carb after shutdown. Start up as usual and see if anything is different. This should prevent the problem if it's percolation. (Though I would have thought the AVgas would have helped this if it was percolation)

If ice around the carb makes no difference, try just icing (or running cold water) on the fuel line next time, then try the fuel pump, etc. This might help isolate the problem if it's a fuel volatility issue.

The lean condition is trickier as it could be a combination of carb and engine characteristics as well as climate (pressure, humidity, ect).

I had a chev 250 six that had this problem BADLY years ago and extra ignition advance solved it. I increased initial advance and messed with the cetrifigal weights/springs to bring the advance on sooner. Eventually I put in a HEI distributor and it ran even better with no lean condition anywhere. The HEI would have had a different ignition curve but also eliminated the potential variances of the points/condenser such as a varying mechanical dwell or a condenser that behaves differently at different voltages, temperatures or RPM. The fuel today allows for greater advance so this area might be worth experimenting.

I'm curious to see how you make out as I live close to 4000 ft above sea level so am expecting a few issues myself when I start driving this beast.

Some hard starting/flooding on hot restart ideas.

First I have never realy had this problem with my cars so have no first hand experiance. From what I have observed with others with the problem it seems it most often happens on engines that don't seem to have a high starter cranking speed.
Its necessary to have a strong battery, starter, etc. for one thing. A slow starter with lots of cureent draw robs the ignition system causing longer cranking and adding to the problem.

Heat riser stuck sure can't help.

What about pulling out the hand throttle about an inch after turning off engine. This will allow the vapors to escape and any excess gas in the manifold to evaporate. Also will not "pump" the accelerator (1938 and up models) when depressing the starter.

Add 10% kerosene to gas.

Place a small eletric fan under the hood aimed at the front of the carburetor. Would be easier than ice cubes.

Open hood and allow heat to escape when shutting of engine.

Coments?

Well Gene, ya stirred me up earlier this week and I’ve been reading up in the 1952 Service Bulletins. And as you mentioned earlier, by 1952, the Chevrolet Service people and Engineering staff were well aware or the problem with percolation, lean mixture and hesitation with their new carburetor.
There were several changes made to the ”˜B’ to deal with the problem early in ”˜52. There is no sense in me repeating all that is written in the Service Bulletins, they are archived at TOCMP for anyone that is interested. But briefly they redesigned the Rochester ”˜B’ to solve the afore mentioned problems, making changes in the accelerator circuit, idle circuit and reducing the number of holes in the cross bar. The castings were changed so it wasn’t just a rework of the earlier models. So, I would say, if you have a smooth running ”˜B’ on your Chevy, you probably don’t have a late ’49, ’50 or early ’51 models on your ride.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, Of all the problems I personally do not recall any percolation problems with the early Rochester. I drove my 1941 (with a Rochester) (in 1951) on a 3600 mile trip out west. Went up Pikes Peak, hit south western Colorado and through the Black Hills and never had a hot start problem. This is not to say it didn't happen under some conditions in some parts of the country. In fact I never had that problem until a trip to Omaha in 1982 with my '39. That was when the only gas you could buy in Iowa was Gasahol and it was much worse than Ethanol when it got hot. After driving at highre speeds and slowing down the engine would actually sputter at a stedy 25 MPH.

Boy do I hate it when somebody starts quoting me, and I very rarely will quote someone else, because I do talk a lot and often say things that are taken out of context or just plain misunderstood. So maybe I misunderstood you Gene when you posted this the other day;
“First let me say that the early low cover model had problems from day one. I my self-would’t invest a dollar in fixing one, especially if it were giving problems. We had flooding problems, idle problems, fuel mileage problems along with the hesitation problems.”
This is an exact description of the problems that Mark and I have been describing and exactly the symptoms indicated for the reason they re-engineered the ”˜B’ in late ’51. I’m referring to Chevrolet Service News Jan, 1952 pg3. Not mentioned is the fact that they increased the thickness of the flange on the air horn (high top) but it is noted on pg5 in the description of the Automatic Choke Carburetor. So the problems with the air horn warpage was showing up even in the first year or so after it’s introduction.

Now Gene, if you were to tell some people today, not mentioning any names here, that you replaced a Carter W-1 with a Rochester ”˜B’, they would walk off into the sun set shaking their head in disbelief. I’ve often seen the W-1 on ’50 and later vehicles but rarely the other way round. As you know, some people have absolutely no use for the Rochester ”˜B’ carburetors.
I’m going to see if I can find one of the ’52-’53 Rochester’s meant for a 216 that isn’t to badly “warped” and do some experimenting with it.
The majority of the carbs that I run across have the tags missing so it’s a little hard to tell exactly what you have inside until you open them up. Of course the low top and high top are easy to distinguish so I guess if you find a manual choke high top with a 216 bolt pattern then it pretty much has to be a ’52 or ’53.
I think this sort of discussion could go on endlessly. “Rebuilding a Carburetor” can different things to different people. To some people it simply means new gaskets and pump, to some it might mean dipping the parts into the Gunk for an hour till the outside looks clean and re-assembling the carb. But as I see it, most important on the list is that every internal port and passage is pristine even if that means pulling the lead or copper plugs and that all the threads have been chased clean and all the jets, needles and or nozzles have been checked for wear, size and shape. Then and only then is the unit reassembled and adjusted. So how can you discuss the performance of a carburetor with out knowing from which environment the subject carb came from.
Gotta go, Sweetie Face is clomping around upstairs.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny,
Since you "hate it when somebody starts quoting me," I will try to refrain. Ooops just done it. Well in this case, it was necessary unless I was to paraphrase your statement. Then it would have been my interpretation and not your opinion. Sorry, but that fella on my left shoulder made me do it, I swear!

Your description of the differences in what people consider "Rebuilding a Carburetor" (drat I did it again, sorry but couldn't think of a better way to get the idea across.) were right on! A proper rebuild should include thorough cleaning, checking the individual parts for wear or damage or replacement, reassembly according to "factory" procedures and specifications. But you left out a critical final step. Test the carburetor on an engine similar to the one that the carb will be installed.

I have "rebuilt" a few hundred carburetors over the past 40+ years. While most perform well after going through all the steps you discussed a few do not. It is those (less than 10%) that for some reason do not. I have often discovered parts substitution during the cleaning, checking stage. It takes checking each part with the proper gauge or tool. An experienced eye is a valuable tool.

It is amazing what people have installed in an attempt to get the carbs to run (properly, better, or ????). I recently actually worked on one that had the idle circuit plugged with a stainless rod pounded in the passage, parts from some other carb(s) and modifications of original parts. I wish I would have tried to run it before disassembly to see what it would have done. Despite my doubts, as I was working on it, I managed to get it to run reasonably well. Another old carb was saved and the owner of the car was happy.

I hope you forgive me for the quotes. They seemed necessary to get the proper message across. Besides I think they make my response more interesting. Thank you for the assistance.

Yeah Chip, I think this here subject has a life of it’s own. Your so correct in saying that there is always that one carburetor that everything looks “right” on it, (that’s my favorite word now) but it just won’t seem to tune the way it should. Notice I got away with out quoting you!
I’ve found jets that were numbered correctly, yet when I check them with a pin gauge it’s obvious that they had been drilled out along the way and on a rare occasion I’ve seen a jet that appeared to be eroded a little out of round.
Also some people will try cleaning out a passage or port with a drill bit and thinking that it was clear all they really did was run up a burr at the end of the passage or make the port bigger or oblong. There are a lot of reasons that aren’t always obvious that could make a carb run off kilter. In most cases we don’t know the service history, so ya just never know who or how many worked on over its fifty or sixty year life span.
Although it is briefly mentioned in the service literature you can bet that a lot of the low speed jets are re-installed in the W-1’s with out installing a new jet or reworking the old one to make sure it seals in the taper. This is one of the main reasons for a rough idle or low speed performance in the W-1.
Well, I’m bout burned out on this for now guys, sorry Mark if we ended up stealing your thread, but I think we did lay a lot of ideas out on the table concerning the problems with these carburetors.
Once again, gotta go get supper ready before Sweetie Face, that’s my big old wife you know, gets home.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Just a little adendum, I just went over to take a look at the Stovebolt Forums and see what I've missed today and Jon Hardgrave is discribing the exact problem and proper way to solve it with the W-1 idle tube. He explains it much better than I can, in fact he is the one who first explained this to me. http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504648&gonew=1#UNREAD
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The "idle tube" Jon is refering to is the low speed jet. Denny, I assumed you replace that in your W-1 as it always comes in the kit.
Chipper has also mentioned through the years that it can not be reused...and its in the shop manuals, etc.

Yes Gene, it’s the low speed jet that Jon and I were talking about. Now here I go quoting again, but I guess quoting myself is OK? This is what I said earlier,
“Although it is briefly mentioned in the service literature you can bet that a lot of the low speed jets are re-installed in the W-1’s with out installing a new jet or reworking the old one to make sure it seals in the taper. This is one of the main reasons for a rough idle or low speed performance in the W-1.”
Although the manual says to replace it you don’t have to unless the end is damaged as in torn, nicked or in some way preventing it from sealing in the taper all the way round. What Jon is referring to is that if you are careful you can re-expand the end a couple of times where it was swaged down by the tapered seat. Here is a picture of how I do it: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2709812840098611668tumimB
I suppose some kits come with a new low speed jet, all the kits that I have gotten from the vendors do not. I assume that Jon’s W-1, 684 kit would have all new jets because the last quote ran around three times as much as the ones I’ve been using from the vendors like JC or Chevy Duty.
And I might add that I just finished three W-1’s using reformed low speed jets and the low speed performance is just, as it should be. Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny: So dudes might not get confused, you might want to explain that part being shown in the photo on the link given above is the air horn nozzle and not the low speed idle tube. The tip of the low speed idle tube is what needs to be expanded.

Your absolutely correct JYD, it is technically the main nozzle, sorry if I confused anyone. I’ve also seen it referred to as the idle-tube which I suppose is also an incorrect reference. I’m not a very good technical writer and have a problem with semantics and getting my point across at times. Adding to my inadequacy is that I’m posting to too many different forums on too many different subjects so I’m often times confused as to just who I’m talking to about what. So, as I said before, I’m bout done here, one last word and I’ll leave the rest up to the experts, remember now, I’m just a back yard mechanic.
There is probably something wrong with this also but my interpretation is that during low-speed operation the main-nozzle is feed by the low-speed jet which is located at the bottom of the passage and at this stage it is the delivery point for the low-speed circuit. As the throttle is opened and the metering rod is withdrawn from the metering jet the main-nozzle then becomes the discharge point for the high-speed circuit also.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that if the main nozzle is not seated properly, you will mostly experience noticeably poor low speed operation.
So if you see anything wrong with this please feel free to make the corrections.
DG

Yes, the main nozzle must be seated correctly and, for seating purposes, the nozzle shown in the photo does use a small copper washer that is installed on the base flange of the nozzle. This small copper washer usually comes in the repair kits and it should replace the original washer when the carburetor is rebuilt. However, the photo showing a tapered tool being inserted into the opening of the main nozzle is confusing, so you might want to change your photo to show the tapered tool being inserted into the actual low speed idle tube instead of the nozzle. That will make it much easier for the novice to understand the explanation as to why this is done when the photo is viewed.

Never giving up does not mean continuing to do things the same way; it means to keep on working toward your goal no matter what, and learning from your mistakes. Lots of mistakes in my replies, this what happens when ya got to much on your plate, confusion! What I’m trying to remember from last year is really foggy and I should have just kept my trap shut in the first place and not spoiled Marks thread. And rather than miss lead any other new guy that is reading this, were it possible to go back an retract what I was posting in my manic state I would. Boy, did you ever just want to leave the room in a conversation, well I do.
You are 100% correct, the picture was wrong. It was a compilation of pictures that I took in a photo session documenting the work that I was doing on one of the carburetors. I had a bunch of parts lied out on the bench and just grabbed the main nozzle for the pictures. I’ve corrected the picture and the previous link is dead. This is the picture that I meant to post; http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2843473480098611668BrdNfp with out the top frame.
DG

Denny, Don't beat up on your self. You shared a whole lot of good stuff with us on this thread. The positive info offered out weighs the mistakes a zillion to one. One thing about this site is that those that point out some minor differences add to the learning curve for all of us.
One of the major values of this site is the amount of sharing of all of the knowledge that our club members posess. If this site was not here, just think of how much of this knowledge and talent would just be locked away and never shared.

Good job!

Well tks Mack, I'm just trying to do to much stuff right now and when I have to dip back to what I was into 6 or 8 months ago I the memory blurs.
Just tryin' to finish up a couple of '51 Philco radio/phonos this week and I got about a dozen RCA 45 players on the shelf before I can get back to the truck this spring.
I'm also at the same time experimenting with casting urethane for knobs, vulcanizing rubber for isolation grommets and mold making in the machine shop for all of that. So I'm bout at my limet.
Denny G

Denny,
Most of the casting urethane compounds do not have UV resistance and will deteriorate relatively quickly in sunlight (not days but months). A UV resistant coating (can be sprayed and function like a mold release) will give longevity. Urethanes range from rock hard to ultra-soft so they work well in many applications. I spent many years in the polyurethane business so may be able to help if you run into problems.

We’re getting waaaay off subject here, but thks Chip.Been looking at products from several different sources, Freeman Mfg & Supply (Hobby Cast), Smooth On and rightr now I’m waiting for an order from Alumilite. Need to learn some about color and creating swirl patterns.
The rubber parts could be used for automotive parts also, I’m using uncured rubber I picked up from a local Bandag tire re-capper and I’m curing it in “my big old wife’s ” oven, when she’s gone that is.
Thanks for the offer, I’ll keep ya in mind.
Gonna have to start talking truck again in a month or so I need to get some of these new skills developed and finish up the winter projects.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL