Vehicles in temporary storage

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#90061 - 12/04/03 03:32 PM Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	I would like to bring you up to date on a problem that came up last fall. I take care of several cars/trucks that are owned by one of our club members. Over the years the owner has built a new house and car show building. This all started with moving his fleet from storage into the new house and eventually into the show building. This turned out to be a lot of fun as each round trip was approximately 200 miles. This transfer of vehicles was accomplished some three years ago. The vehicles were initially moved into temporary storage at the new location as the show building was still being completed. The vehicles were mainly Chevrolet cars and trucks, but also included some with only 4 letters in the name. Condition of the vehicles ran from Concours level down to original vehicles. In the process of moving these vehicles around at the current location, for the purpose of visitors, and normal operation to keep them fresh, two of the vehicles failed to start. This was a 1947 Coupe and a 1941 ½ ton pickup. These two vehicles are the bases of the collection and both have received frame off professional restorations. The coupe has approximately 25 miles showing and the truck about 50. Starting procedure was to remove the air filter and place a small quantity of raw gas in the carburetor. As the vehicles had sat for a long time, the fuel in the bowl of the carburetor had evaporated, and without priming them an additional load would have been placed on the battery and starter. A 12-volt battery is normally used for these cold starts. The jumper cable is connected to the top connection on the starter (+) and the other cable (-) is attached, only during the attempt to start, to a good connection away from the engine such as the bumper bracket or any other accessible location. The selection of this distant location is to reduce the shock of the 12 volts on the system. The jumper cable is removed the instant the vehicle is started. When a vehicle failed to start and it was determined that both spark and fuel were present, the valve cover was removed to observe the function of the rocker arms and pushrods. Here is what was found. And several of these. Some more background. The fuel that was in the fuel tanks had been there for as long as 10 years. Both vehicles were equipped with locking gas caps. Both of these two vehicles were stored at all times in such a manner that they were inaccessible to anyone intend on doing harm. Will hold the story here for discussion on why this happened before I continue. _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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#90062 - 12/04/03 03:53 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Vintage James Vintage James Oil Can Mechanic Registered: 12/30/01 Posts: 704 Loc: Indianapolis, IN	A couple questions: Was the location of storage in a climate controlled environment or was anything exposed to extreme heat/cold? Did the owner have bad karma? How long had the engines sat since the last operation? _________________________ ------------------------- James W. Burnes Former VCCA Board Member, 2002-2005 Vintage Chevrolet Archives
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#90063 - 12/04/03 04:45 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	Looks like the classic example of valves sticking in their guides. Cause-10 year old gas forms a varnish on the valve stems.Never try to reuse fuel that is over two years old. Procedure that may have eleminated the problem.First drain the gas tank and replace with fresh.Remove valve cover and lubricate valve guides.ATF or MMO prefered (by me) as it penetrates better than motor oil and has more of a solvent action.Turn engine over slowly (not 12 volts) to check valve action.If a valves shows evidence of sticking loosen rocker arm and slide over and tap stem with hammer.I would also dump some of the oil down the carb. throat.Would not have tried to prime until the engine has turned over a bit. Sticking valves could also have been caused by rust on valve stems but varnish most common. _________________________ Chevgene
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#90064 - 12/04/03 05:30 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chipper Chipper Registered: 11/22/01 Posts: 4870 Loc: The Great State of TEXAS	From personal experience I vote for rust on the valve stems. The first time I restored my '32 Roadster pickup the valves and guides were replaced. Over a 10 year period the truck was only driven a couple of hundred miles. Three times during that time one or more exhaust valves stuck and bent push rods. Since a number of times when the temperature dropped moisture condensed on the engine it is likely that some moisture was also drawn down the valve stems. Eventually enough rust built up to stick the valve. The head was never taken off and the valves freed by tapping on them with a brass hammer with atf on the stem. Once freed and the push rod straightened the engine ran fine. When the engine was checked during the second restoration the valves were pulled and each one that had stuck at least once had noticable rust on the stem. Some others had a little but not as much as those that stuck. In case there are non believers. It is the same mechanism that puts water in a gas tank. The tank warms during the day and gas (or air) is expelled. Then at night the temperature drops and moist air is drawn into the tank. Some of the moisture condenses and drops to the bottom of the tank. The gas layer keeps the water from evaporating. Eventually enough water is condensed to rust out the tank. The only remedy is to keep the valve stems oiled and or run the engine frequently. It will not help the gas tank. Keeping the tank full is the best or adding gas drying agent is the preventative. _________________________ How Sweet the roar of a Chevy four!
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#90065 - 12/04/03 05:32 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	The 216 and 235 engines Both mechanical and hydralic lifters and also some of the not so old V/8 engines do this, after long term storage, if they aren't properly prepared for starting (pull the plugs) and lube the cylinders , valve stems and rocker arms then check for stuck valves by removeing the valve cover/or covers , setting the points if so equipped,then turning over the engines with the plugs out before primeing. I don't think it is always caused by varnish in the gasolene. I have found stuck exhaust valves in pulled heads stored in a dry inside storage area after 8 or 10 years, it may be cathodic corrosion from dissimilar metals in the valves and valve guides, some of these valves were rusted and corroded to the point that the stems bent when tapped with a brass hammer. _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#90066 - 12/04/03 06:29 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	That is why I drown out my engines with MMO when putting them away for the winter.A good way to lubricate the guides from the inside-as well as valve seats. cyl. walls, etc.Used to do it when engine was hot-now do it with a cold engine so it dosen't burn off the "interior" parts as fast.Also coats in inside of the exhaust system. _________________________ Chevgene
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#90067 - 12/04/03 06:39 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	Gene, I don't think we can emphasise that winterizing process too much. It would make a good article for the G&D and also for the regional newsletters. My problems of this nature have occurred in cars I have bought from someone else and also preparing some 1984 & 1985 company cars for auction in 1993 that were surplus and had been stored after the oil industry went south during the late 80s and early 90s. They had been driven to an out of the way place turned off, batterys and keys removed and left as is without any thing else being done. _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#90068 - 12/04/03 07:16 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	In the mid to late '50s the 1954 and up F*#d Overhead valve V8s would get "stuck valves" after sitting on the used car lot.This would take only a few weeks.Would bend the push rods also. _________________________ Chevgene
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#90069 - 12/04/03 10:32 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	As a point of clarification, these two vehicles receive the best of treatment. In fact when they were move here, these two vehicles had to be moved in closed trailers. Although not in a perfect controlled environment, they are kept in a heated basement and in the show building. That condition is both good and bad. They can’t be run in their stored location and must be moved outside because of the exhaust fumes. When the problem was discovered, I was not equipped to work on them at the time. My first thought was to bring them back to my shop to make the necessary repairs. This is about 100 miles one way and again a closed trailer would have to be used. Decision was made to make another trip and work on them at the storage location. Something that you may not have thought of is the difficulty of working on a show car/truck at any location. I don’t even want to think about causing damage such as a dropped wrench on the fender, slamming the head into the firewall or radiator. However, the biggest problem is how many tools do you bring and what parts will you need. I made a decision, based on the fact that both vehicles had been run fairly recently, that I could remove the rocker arms and with a brass drift and hammer, with volumes of oil on the stems, loosen the stuck valves and complete the job on site. So that is how I loaded up to make the next trip. I took a trusted helper along and made the trip. Immediately it was noted that none of the stuck valves could be forced open. Only solution now was to remove both heads and take them back to my shop. Back at the shop it became even more evident that the valves were not going to cooperate. In the long run it took soaking, hot water, solvent, and as a last resort, they had to be PUSHED OUT SLOWLY WITH A PRESS . Take a look at these pictures. Note the black substance around the valve face and on the cylinder head. Black substance on the valve where it seats and also on the stem. Isn't that picture interesting? In looking at the last picture note that the valve has only one ring around the stem. Don’t second-guess; we will get to that point. _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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#90070 - 12/05/03 11:51 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	Ray, I was talking to a machine shop owner that does a lot of valve-in-head work. He had a rash of valves sticking in older 6 cylinder engines (235 Chevrolets)after running for several hundred miles of highway driveing. He thinks it was because he was useing modern valve guides and was fitting them to modern engine specs. and maybe the older heads should have more valve to valve guide clearance. Has this been a subject on the Stovebolt engine site or on the Inliner's site that anyone knows about? _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#90071 - 12/05/03 11:01 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
BigBob BigBob Registered: 03/28/03 Posts: 1020 Loc: Alderwood Manor, Washington	Chev Nut What is MMO that you refer to for winterizing?
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#90072 - 12/06/03 06:32 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	Marvel Mystery Oil-It is a light oil-comes in a red bottle (older versions were in a can) is also red in color and has an undescribeable nice smell. The engine pictured looks as if it would have taken more than a MMo treatment to have prevented the problem. _________________________ Chevgene
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#90073 - 12/06/03 01:10 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	That is strange looking stuff on the valve and the valve stem, is that what it looked like when it was dissambled? Black and deep purple? Any clue as to what it is? Maybe cotton candy? ...or radiator stop leak? _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#90074 - 12/09/03 08:48 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
RustyFender RustyFender Backyard Mechanic Registered: 12/15/01 Posts: 220 Loc: San Jose, CA	I'm going to go out on a limb and guess ethylene glycol contamination from a defective head gasket. (Although it was mentioned that hot water was not successful in removing the valves.) I hope this is not not the case however as this would make the condition of the rings and bearings suspect as well. Has the engine oil been tested for contamination? -R
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#90075 - 12/10/03 08:23 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chipper Chipper Registered: 11/22/01 Posts: 4870 Loc: The Great State of TEXAS	If antifreeze and oil mix the result is a thick tan mayonnaise looking sludge. It is an emulsion (stable mixture) of water, glycol and oil. Carburetor cleaner or other similar solvents will break the emulsion to the component parts. I suspect the crud is hydrocarbon based. It could come from oil breakdown or gasoline oxidation or similar source. Oil subject to exhaust gas or excessive heat will form a gooey sludge. When modern gas evaporates it forms an effective glue. Typically it is a dark brown color but die in different brands of gasoline can change the color. A good carburetor cleaner should cut either oil residue or gas kruddd. _________________________ How Sweet the roar of a Chevy four!
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#90076 - 12/12/03 12:20 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	I haven’t forgot you guys. Just extremely busy. Made another trip to work on both the truck and car and will report later. This will answer one question: _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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#90077 - 12/12/03 07:30 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	I would not susoect the problem to be caused by a coolant leak.When I removed the cracked head from my '39 the cylinder with the crack had a rusty combustion chamber, valves-including the seats and the cyl wall itself.If it would have had cast iron pistons the piston would also have had rust on top.I still suspect some combination of old gas and moisture caused the problem unless there was another problem unknown to us. _________________________ Chevgene
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#90078 - 12/12/03 07:43 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
GrassPilot GrassPilot Grease Monkey Registered: 12/05/03 Posts: 5 Loc: Markdale Ontario	Looking at the colour of the substance that has locked up the valve stems, also the glazed appearance around the head of the valve on the combustion chamber.I would say that when the engine was put to-gether some one used too much form-a-gasket,like lock-tite 515 or equivalent.Such a product has an anearobic hardener in it.It will stay in a paste consistency until it finds a tight space to sit in.Then hardens up.I have repaired a lot of engines due to excessive sealant usage,it seals where you want and some times where you don't. This is only an educated guess _________________________ If you need a bigger hammer,get the instructions first
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#90079 - 12/16/03 06:40 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	Hi Gang, I have not left you, just extremely busy. Take some time and see if you can figure out what this item is. Will tell you all about it when we resume. _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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#90080 - 12/16/03 07:36 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Dopey Dopey Grease Monkey Registered: 06/04/03 Posts: 12 Loc: Portland, OR	I know I know! Don't know how it got that way though.
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#90081 - 12/16/03 09:17 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	Looks like an electrical do-hicky to me! _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#90082 - 12/16/03 09:48 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	Quote: In looking at the last picture note that the valve has only one ring around the stem. Don’t second-guess; we will get to that point. We will take a Left turn here and discuss valves and seals, but we will return to the main subject in due time. Just for a point of reference I would suggest you take a few minutes and go HERE . When you go pay particular attention to valve/guide clearance. When you are up on 4-cylinders, come on back and we will continue. This is a picture of the typical valve seals used on the Chevrolet 6-cylinder engine. This is an aftermarket seal and was designed for a specific purpose. What do we have here? Going back to the last picture of a previous post we made note of the rings on the stem of the valves. To refresh your memory we are working on two engines, one from a 1941 truck and one from a 1947 car, but both 216 engines. How many rings should be on these valves and why? It is obvious from the picture we only have one ring. Is this a problem? PROBLEMS TO THINK ABOUT. 1. Under what conditions would you use the small “O” ring seal? 2. What conditions would exist for you to use the “Umbrella” type seals. 3. What engine used the “caps” and why? 4. Is there an occasion where you would not use ANY seal? {I have another trip planned next Monday to continue work on both vehicles. Will bring you up to date after that trip} _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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#90083 - 12/17/03 08:40 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Master Six Master Six Shade Tree Mechanic Registered: 12/17/01 Posts: 45 Loc: New Jersey	1. "O" ring seal is used when there are two grooves machined on the valve stem. One is for the o-ring and the other is for the keeper. 2. Umbrella seals can be used when there is no machined groove on the stem. Sometimes the valve guide boss can be machined to hold the seal in place. There just has to be clearance so the spring retainer doesn't smash the seal. 3. I am not sure about the caps-they don't look like valve rotators to me- are they designed to lessen the oil flow down to the valve? 4. My guess is you do not want to use a seal that would cut down on the amount of oil needed to lubricate the valve, causing possible seizure. Just my opinions in trying to answer!!
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#90084 - 12/18/03 07:02 AM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	Problems to think about---------- 1-Under what conditions to use the O ring.The O ring type seal was introduced in 1948.The valve spring retaining cap was also revised to accomadate the O ring.Keepers remained the same.Shortly after that time Chevrolet discontinued the single grove valve stems for 1941-47 and the two grove valves were used-this required replacing the "cap".----The two grove O ring type seals are still used to this day.Were used on both 6 and 8 cyl. engines. 2-The umbrella type "tin" caps that were placed over the valve stem and retaining cap were introduced in 1941 and used on the intake valves only.This was done to "controll" the amount of oil running down the guides.The oil caused three problems.The oil would cause carbon to form on the valve stems (valves could stick).Exhaust smoking on restarts and after periods of engine ideling and Oil consumption.In 1946-47 the caps were added to the exhaust valves also.Eleminated completely in 1948 due to the improved O ring seal.Many mechanics discarded the "tin" caps after the cars logged on miles.This was because as the became loose on the valve stems they caused valve train noise.They were often refered to as "rattle caps". 3-The rubber or plastic umbrella placed on the valve stem under the cap is a modern item.It also deflects the oil from running down the stem.I have these installed on my 1934 and 1939.The ones I used are also used on late model small block V8 Chevrolets.They move up and down with the valve.Have been running them for years with no problem.At one time it was thought that the guides needed lubrication.It was found that they do better on modern engines if run dry. 4-Is there an occasion where you would run no seal?...In a 4 cyl. as no oil is supplied to the valve train.Also if I had a 1929-33 6 cyl. I would consider not using a seal. The above is a combination of Chevrolet facts plus my opinions from past experiance.It is all truthful to the best of my knowledge _________________________ Chevgene
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#90085 - 12/23/03 05:20 PM Re: Vehicles in temporary storage
AntiqueMechanic AntiqueMechanic Technical Advisor Registered: 12/02/01 Posts: 4722 Loc: Vancouver, WA	Where does all the time go? Spent all day Monday working on the project vehicles. The 1947 car is almost finished. Redid (complete boil out/dip, this removed the tin coat so it was necessary to re-tin the tank after closing some 14 rust holes) the gas tank, cleaned fuel pump, cleaned filter and tried to do a field cleaning on the carburetor. Fresh gas with MMO and “STA-BIL” mixed in was added to the cleaned tank. Car ran fairly good, however it was obvious the idle circuit in the carburetor was plugged. Based upon the findings in the gas tank of the car I decided it was necessary to go back to the truck and pull the tank on it also. Was a wise decision. Yes, that is the removed gas gage sending unit from the truck. This is the sending unit sitting on top of the hole it was removed from. This is a scraping from the bottom of the tank with a screwdriver. In removing the tank from the truck it became obvious that the entire system was again infected so I also removed the carburetor from the truck along with the filter. The top of the fuel pump was removed from both vehicles in order to clean the valves properly. When the top was removed the valves in the truck were “welded” shut by the culprit. This entire process has been a lesson in trying to accomplish difficult tasks away from the shop. I have remembered to take every tool necessary so far, with the exception of the small clutch head screwdriver to remove the slats in the seat of the truck, and the fuel-sending unit. Curious to see if “Dopey” made the correct guess on the picture posted earlier of the car fuel sending unit? To refresh your memory, both of these fuel tanks were professionally cleaned and re-tinned at the time of the original restorations. The same vendor did both tanks. I returned the car tank to the same vendor. I reminded him that he was the one who cleaned the tanks originally. When I picked up the tank it had been cleaned, re-tinned and COATED ON THE INSIDE WITH A JELLY LIKE RED SUBSTANCE WHICH HAD SEMI-HARDENED. I am familiar with the “yellow-snot” we used to use and the current “white-snot” but not the red material used. I have not contacted him to find out what this material is but will do so. In vehicles that I have restored, I did NOT coat the inside of the tanks after they had been cleaned and re-tinned. Knocking on wood, I have never had a comeback on any of those tanks. Is this lining material, reacting with current day gas, and left in storage for years, the cause of all the problems? Chev Nut I have not abandoned your well thought out comments about valve seals, we will return to that subject. _________________________ RAY Chevradioman http://www.vccacolumbiariverregion.org/
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