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#89657 - 09/21/02 05:33 AM
School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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Hi Chev Nut,
Sorry for the inconvenience of sending you down here for an answer.
Can't really say for sure that they are still manufacturing them, but I got the call yesterday that my pistons and rings had arrived at the parts house for me to pick up.
NOTE: The "Moderator" of this department has advised me that any post not contributing directly to the thread will either be deleted or moved into "General Discussions" if it has any other redeeming value.
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#89660 - 09/22/02 09:19 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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Hi ken,
Unfortunately some information must remain as "Trade Secrets". Appears to work for Bill Gates and he has almost as much money as I do. (Or is it the other way around?)
Accept the fact that Badger has pistons for the Chevrolet 4-cylinder cars.
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#89661 - 09/24/02 01:53 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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CHEVY
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 1461
Loc: ORTING,WASHINGTON
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#89662 - 09/24/02 02:25 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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Badger has been in business for years and are the manufacturer of the pistons. They are distributed by Dynagear(R), Downers Grove, IL. Your local parts house should have their catalog and can assist in ordering.
Unless you are an authorized distributor I would doubt that you could get a catalog other than an outdated one from your parts supplier.
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#89663 - 09/24/02 08:11 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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CHEVY
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 1461
Loc: ORTING,WASHINGTON
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#89665 - 09/24/02 09:54 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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That's what I have been trying to tell them. Most shops charge even more for the research than machining rates. If you have a serious need for the information, you can get it.
It doesn't have to be by brand name 'Badger'. Any brand will do.
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#89666 - 09/25/02 08:23 AM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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CHEVY
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 1461
Loc: ORTING,WASHINGTON
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#89668 - 09/26/02 01:31 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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CHEVY
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 1461
Loc: ORTING,WASHINGTON
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#89670 - 09/26/02 07:32 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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CHEVY
Registered: 12/30/01
Posts: 1461
Loc: ORTING,WASHINGTON
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#89672 - 10/10/02 12:49 AM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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School is about to convene for another session. The engine has been extracted from the car and completely disassembled.
A question was asked earlier in a private message as to how to remove the engine from the car. My solution was to remove the hood, radiator as a unit and the cross bar (headlight bar). Inside I removed the floorboards. Driveline was broken at the u-joint. Transmission cover was removed and the parking brake handle. Before the operation was started I had already removed the head and the pan. To prevent damage to the oil pump it was removed. It would not have been necessary, but I removed all the ‘black items’ (generator, starter, ect). At this point it was very easy to remove the engine, bell housing, and transmission as a unit.
With the assembled unit removed from the car it was then very easy to break it up into the major components. Everything was set aside except for the engine. It was to be disassembled next.
During this operation of removing the engine, and the subsequent disassembly, it was very apparent that the shop/individual that built the engine and did the original assembly were very competent. If it were not for the failure of the #3 piston the engine would have performed for many more years. However, it is evident it was eventually doomed to failure. Although the mains are still serviceable, problems were present. When we rebuilt Chevrolet engines in the late 40’s and early 50’s it was possible to identify the brand of engine oil used by the owner based on the residue in the engine. If the owner had used PxxxxiL the pan would be an inch deep in sludge. That describes this engine. When the main bearing shells were carefully taken from the engine the oil feed holes were already blocked by massive amounts of sludge. It is obvious that the previous owner did not perform any maintenance on this engine. Other signs of good work by the engine builder were the attention to detail such as aircraft wiring the screws on the oil pump. When removing the engine from the car it was noted that the engine mounting bolts were assembled with the proper bolts, nuts, and cotter keys, but the nuts were still loose (?).
The engine has been completely stripped and is ready for the ‘hot tank’. Was discouraged that no shims are left in any of the rods. This will take more examination and measurements before a decision can be made as to what action to take. On the other hand, all mains had shims. The crank does not appear to have any major damage, although it has not been ‘tanked’ and examined.
The next step is to clean everything and examine it very closely. I already know that the cylinders will be punched out approximately .060. As they are now at .020 and whatever wear and taper that exists, the boring will not be extensive. As noted before, each piston will be fitted to it’s own hole with the clearance as prescribed by the piston manufacturer.
Your questions and comments are welcomed. Just for the fun of it, and to keep interest by more members, it would be appreciated if they were pertinent.
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#89677 - 10/11/02 01:04 AM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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CHEV NUT:
I am saving the head for later. There are some problems and I have a unique solution to share with you. There is also some exciting information about the head.
MR MACK:
Everything that you said has merit. It’s just that years ago it was a standing discussion among the mechanics that the extremely contaminated engines on disassembly had been using P####O##. This was confirmed several times by asking the owner what brand oil he had been using.
CHEVY CHIP:
It was not too far from your location that I was doing the ‘wrench’ work on the old Chevy’s. Must have just been the local oil that caused the problem. Good to see you back in school. School will remain in session as long as the students are attentive or the subject matter doesn't become boring. (Boring, that sounds like a machine shop operation).
Would be more than welcome to be kept posted on your project.
MR MACK:
You’re right; perhaps we have lubed this one sufficiently, and can take it down off the lift.
After a good nights rest, the block was examined again this morning in natural light. In viewing the exhaust side of the block the discoloration of the area surrounding the #3 and #4 piston was very obvious. Oil under the pushrod cover was ’burned’. The engine paint on the backside of #4 was also burned. This engine had obviously been very hot in that area either as a result of the bad piston or just the reverse, the piston had been damaged by the hot spot. The block is in the hot tank as we speak and will be closely examined and magnafluxed when it comes out. To insure the maximum cleaning action all ’freeze’ plugs were removed. Particular attention will be placed on flushing and probing the water passages.
For future reference here are the markings on the block:
348532-4, directly underneath this number is a Bow tie, and under that is K 16 7 (Nov 16 1927) This date is consistent with the assembly date of the car. The engine number stamped on the boss is: 38 64000. Keep this number in mind when we get to the head. Inside the engine and under #1 and #2 cylinders is stamped “B7” and under #3 and #4 is stamped “A11”.
(KenK, please jump in here and comment as you see fit on all these numbers and markings).
Also today, time was spent on the fitting of pistons to the rods. What appeared as a simple machining process sent me to 5 machine shops before I could get one to tackle the project. The work is to be completed on Friday. When I pick them up that will be the main emphasis of our next class. Till then----recess.
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#89680 - 10/16/02 11:56 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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Perhaps just a bit of refresher information is in order. Last session we talked about the engine number, date and casting number. This information is located on the passenger’s side and near the rear of the block. The stamped number is the engine number.
To tie this all together the car number on the small plate located on the right end of the seat riser is: 6 AB 2324 This number tells us that the car was assembled in Oakland, CA, the AB indicates a 1928 National and the last number is the sequential assembly number at Oakland. This very low number corresponds with the low number on the engine and the casting date of 1927. I’m still waiting for one of our absent students (KenK) to raise his hand and tell us all about these numbers and dates.
Hot tanking the block turned out to be difficult too. That is to get it thoroughly clean. When the rear soft plug was removed it took a drill bit to remove the ‘crud’ packed around #4 in the water passages. It was obvious that no water had circled #4 in many years. The reservoirs above the front and rear mains were packed with black gook. It is even more obvious that this car was not well maintained and now I even question the engine builder.
From the picture, which is the right side (passenger), you can easily see the discoloration around #3 and #4 as was mentioned in an earlier post. What, with the plugged water passages, poor oil changing practices, and perhaps the bad piston, it is no wonder that I decided to tear this engine down for inspection.
Here is a view of the ‘crud’ on the center main bearing support. This same material was all over the inside of the engine and in all the reservoirs.
At this point the rods have been modified at the small end to accept the pistons I have selected. This is a view of our setup on a milling machine to ream the small ends. This provided a rough cut and they were finished up with the hone on the rod-resizing machine. Notice in the picture that a piece of metal has been clamped in the open space on the rod. This is necessary to prevent the reamer from catching the edge of the gap. This also insures that we have the exact size necessary when the bolt is released.
Next will be fitting the big ends of the rods to the crank.
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#89681 - 10/21/02 10:27 PM
Re: School is in session (Contd)
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AntiqueMechanic
Technical Advisor
Registered: 12/02/01
Posts: 4723
Loc: Vancouver, WA
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All the cars are back in the barn after a madhouse weekend. Had one of my cars in the Big NW Car Collectors Show and Swap Meet. Our local VCCA Columbia River Region had a club display that featured my ‘41 and another ‘41 that I maintain for a customer. One of my ’28s was in the Ghost Stories presentation. This is a major production on Officers Row in the historic Vancouver Barracks in Vancouver Washington. So now we can start school again.
The best time to fit the big ends of the rods to the crank is while it is out of the block. This is kinda practice on this job as we have already fit the rods before we tore the engine down. However, as a check we will do it under these ideal conditions. By fitting the rods with the crank out of the block we can swing the rod completely around the throw and find out if there is any unusual wear in the throw. As we have mentioned earlier, it is typical for the throw to wear into an oval shape. This is because the force is at the top of the travel on the throw and then again at the bottom as it changes direction. There is very little force and therefore very little wear when the throw is at a 90 degree angle. Granted, we could make the same determination by use of a micrometer. You will note that I have not mentioned using plastigage for this fitting. If this was the first time around it could have been used, however a practiced feel is more accurate.
Each rod is fitted to its specific location on the crank. That is #1 rod is fit to the #1 throw and so forth. As each rod is fitted it is advisable to make written notes as to how many shims are used and their location. As the rod is removed small plastic ties can be used to keep the components in their required location until the final assembly is started.
Even from the factory assembly, components are liberally marked as to their location. Pistons are marked as to ‘front’ and to which hole. Rods are generally marked by numbers at the factory. It has become custom in engine rebuilding to remark the rods. This is usually done by hash marks. These marks designate in which hole the rod will be placed and which rod cap goes to that rod.
Note in the picture that this rod is marked by #4 on both the rod and cap and subsequently remarked #4 with hash marks. Unseen in the photo, but the bottom, or cap, is also marked with 4 hash marks. It is safe to say that when we do the final assembly this one will go in #4 hole.
Okay, we will have recess while I go put out some fires in other locations. Wouldn’t it be nice if this were all I had to do?
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