Help me understand

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#108689 - 10/13/07 03:10 PM Help me understand
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	Our judging form says there will be a MANDATORY 100 POINT DEDUCTION for the INCORRECT ENGINE and for AFTER-MARKET AIR CONDITION. In the October G&D for motions 07-07 and 07-06 it is stated that with the CDPC class coming into effect in 2008 that these concerns will be addressed. Please explain how this will work. Is this going to permit modified vehicles to be recognized in VCCA? Thanks for your help. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108698 - 10/14/07 04:46 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
steve57 steve57 Grease Monkey Registered: 03/28/06 Posts: 20 Loc: hammonton nj	That dirty word has been used again .MODIFIED .There is a big differance between that word and a non-stock car. Steve Here we go again...
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#108706 - 10/14/07 09:17 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: steve57]
PDXjoe PDXjoe Backyard Mechanic Registered: 06/10/03 Posts: 323 Loc: OR	Just my opinion: All restored cars are modified. Even my low mileage '55 which isn't restored has urethane clear coat paint, seat belts, radials and gauges. Why? Because I drive it.
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#108752 - 10/14/07 08:56 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: PDXjoe]
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	So, there is no such thing as a restored Chevrolet being a "restored to original" 1000 point car? Trying to keep up with all these details about VCCA Judging are giving me a headache, I guess I shall never have a First Junior, First Senior or a Presentation car. I shall just try to keep them in road worthy condition and try to advance thru the PASSPORT touring milemarker classes. Maybe we will see soon what the PASSPORT Awards will be. If you have PASSPORT miles registered and stamped contact Dave C. and he will collect the data and will let us know. I sent him some scanned documents of my PASSPORT with 1900+ stampede miles in the book. And if I show one of them I'll settle for Participant classification. I wish success for those that enjoy Judging and also having their car advance thru the classes. I have enough wrong with my cars that I probably would make a first class judge! _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#108756 - 10/15/07 04:31 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	I had hoped for an explanation of the wording of the article in the G&D. How will the CDPC address the issues of wrong year engine and after market AC? I'm just trying to educate myself. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108764 - 10/15/07 06:33 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
Bill Barker Bill Barker Chatmaster Registered: 11/20/01 Posts: 1867 Loc: Issaquah, WA	I think that you asked a good question.... but you are a little ahead of the curve... The motions are being reviewed and as soon as the committee renders it's judgement, then you'll have your answer... You (and all of us) will just have to wait a little longer. The very fact that we now have these kinds of motions actively being reviewed is a big change... Previously they might have have just been dismissed. I'm very interested in seeing what the CDPC rules end up being. For those who haven't read up on this new class you can see it HERE. _________________________ Bill Barker VCCA CHAT Administrator
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#108779 - 10/15/07 09:59 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: Bill Barker]
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	From what I have heard the CDPC class is not going to be a "competition class" where you have to have so many points to be a winner, the CDPC cars are not being judged under the current judging rule book it is not going to address the wrong engine issue or any other issues in the current VCCA Judging Handbook and rules. Those of the VCCA membership that want to split hairs about what is original probably won't like to participate in the CDPC class certifications. _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#108788 - 10/15/07 11:10 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	That is correct, they will be certified like the HPOCF cars rather than judged. I believe that was described in a past issue of the G&D. To me it makes no sense _________________________ Chevgene
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#108800 - 10/15/07 04:46 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Chev Nut]
John 348/340HP John 348/340HP Registered: 12/16/01 Posts: 1089 Loc: Glen Cove, NY	Guys, We have a lot of members who just don't enjoy having their car judged. A perfect example of this was at Grand Junction, there were over 200 cars and trucks whose owners just wanted to display their vehicles. There have been many requests over the past few years from the members to create this type of participation class. We have many member who have "tour" vehicles and have installed certain upgrades to make the driving of their vehicle easier for them, although (for lack of a better word) "modified" they are far from street rods. Other clubs who have a similar mission statement as ours have done this and have had overwhelming participation. These cars are in the club already and owned by members who actively participate, the Board of Directors felt it is time that they get recognition for showing it on the show field, and also offer some incentive to members to also display their cars on the show field who otherwise would not. Basically all it is a national participation award. The reason we certify the vehicle is to assure the vehicle is visually representative of the club's mission statement. Simply put the vehicles are to be no different then the cars we see now in the articles in the G&D attending the specific tours. I hope this clears up a few questions. (and no it is not for street rods!) John Mahoney Assistant National Judging Chair
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#108802 - 10/15/07 05:02 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: John 348/340HP]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	I thought the meet plaques were recognition for attending a meet and that the plaques for the plaque tours was recognition for driving a vehicle on a meet tour. I would be interested in seeing a manditory tour of at least 10 miles after judging before a judged vehicle could receive an award. I recently participated in a show that had a 50 mile tour the day before the show. If there was a tie in the judging the vehicle that completed the tour received the award. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108804 - 10/15/07 06:41 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
John 348/340HP John 348/340HP Registered: 12/16/01 Posts: 1089 Loc: Glen Cove, NY	Jim, That is a great suggestion, and we did think of it but we had to keep in mind that not every meet has a tour. So really they are two separate things. Remember some of our regions are located in heavy populated areas that do not allow fun touring. This is for those who feel "my car is not good enough." Lets see how it works, this past weekend at the AACA Meet at Hershey there were almost 100 cars registered for the DPC class. It has proven to be a big success for them in improving attendance, we hope for the same. John
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#108806 - 10/15/07 06:47 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: John 348/340HP]
Chev Nut Chev Nut Registered: 01/08/02 Posts: 9622 Loc: West Allis,Wi.	John, Would a 235 engine in a 1948 216 car be permisable in this class or just a later 216 engine? What are the enine/drive line options? Or hasn't this been determined? _________________________ Chevgene
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#108807 - 10/15/07 06:48 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: John 348/340HP]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	From what I have heard about Hershey they enter that class to have a good parking space inthe show. At the meet I attended in Moline, IL they only had six cars in that class. There were more in the HPOF class. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108812 - 10/15/07 07:41 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
John 348/340HP John 348/340HP Registered: 12/16/01 Posts: 1089 Loc: Glen Cove, NY	Gene, The engine has to appear to be original, so a 235 would be acceptable but a 350 would not, nor a 230 for that matter. Remember this is a display class, think of all of the cars that you tour with, do any of those have a 235 instead of a 216? From what I understand you can have a 62 235 in a 40 and participate on a six cylinder tour, but a 62 with a 235 is not early enough? How many cars have been on the cover of the G&D with the wrong engine? None of us really know. Jim, Not being there I can not comment about Moline, but I can comment on Binghamton and there were at least 50 cars in DPC there. So maybe the interest is more regional on the east, I really have no answer for that. As far as the better parking I think that might be true in some cases, there were a few DNJ's in the class I had my car in. If that were the case they really earned it, it took one and half hours to drive on the field once you started to enter. Regardless of the reason they still brought their cars to share with everyone. They could have just as easily taken their modern and parked it in the lot. They participated! and that is what counts! There were more HPOF cars than DPC at Hershey also, on a quick look there were close to 175 registered. John
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#108826 - 10/16/07 03:54 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: John 348/340HP]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	I don't see how this can be accomplished without judging. How else will we know if they have the correct engine, if they have the correct seats, have after market AC, have incorrect tire and wheel size. They may be certified inplace of 1st, 2nd, 3rd place awards but they will be judged. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108829 - 10/16/07 06:26 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	Back Roads, I understand that the new class is completely seperate from the judging classes, Look under the hood if it has any inline six that is a 216 or 235 that appears to be in normal configuration, maybe 1 carb for sixes and no TPI 350 engine in a 55? and the body is not chopped blacked out, or customized it would qualify for certification, there is no 1st, 2nd, 3rd or Presentation ratings, no points, the car will just be certified as a CDPC class car or it won't be a CDPC car, your car won't be competing with another car. Maybe it is a "Feel Good" thing to get more participation in meets from the members that don't like class judging, and only want to do tours. keep the concept of comparimg one member's car with another out on the judging field. At this stage of the game we are merely speculating as to what will be allowed on a CDPC car or truck since the details have not been worked out yet. Maybe it will work for some and not for others. _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#108831 - 10/16/07 07:33 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	Mack, I understand there are no 1`st, 2nd, 3rd awards but how are you to know if the vehicle is correct if it is not judged? I have had two vehicles HPOCF Certified. There were no points recorded but the vehicles were judged. When they look inside, outside, under the hood, lay on their back and look under to me that is judging. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108834 - 10/16/07 09:25 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Chipper Chipper Registered: 11/22/01 Posts: 4870 Loc: The Great State of TEXAS	First I must correct a misconception. VCCA Judging does not and never has compared one vehicle to another. It compares the vehicle to an evaluation criterion with point deductions for items that do not meet the originality or condition standard. Awards are given based on the total number of points. The CDPC has a form of judging. Despite the words used it is a comparison to a criteria by people. If it does not adhere in enough areas it is not certified. It all takes time though not expected to take as much as actual class judging. Though I don’t advocate display of Hot Rods, Street Rods, Highly Modified or otherwise obviously non-stock appearing vehicles at VCCA events, we do not have a reasonable process to prohibit it. There are anti-discrimination laws and other rules and regulations that I am sure some legal advocates would be happy to sue us over if they felt it was to their benefit. Without detailed and specific criteria I fear they would win. Neither I nor anyone that I know has ever proposed a set of criteria to define how much modification is acceptable and how much not. Without that in my opinion any Chevrolet owned by a VCCA member in good standing is eligible to participate in VCCA events. Sorry to pour cold water on your parade but in this litigious world we must do some things were prefer not to do. _________________________ How Sweet the roar of a Chevy four!
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#108845 - 10/16/07 10:07 AM Re: Help me understand [Re: Chipper]
Solan Solan Registered: 11/01/06 Posts: 900 Loc: Oslo, Norway	May be the "rules" for judging at meetings would be different in USA compared to Norway. The American Car Club here has made a judging system with points, resulting in a ranking list, and prizes and it normally works fine. But I think a club could put up their own rules and classes: F.ex. No judging of modified cars, hot rods, too new cars (must be older than 20 years) etc. It should have the right to do so, if the conditions are clearly informed before the meeting and/or announced at the entrance. _________________________ Solan G, # 32797 Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA! Have a look: http://www.stovebolt.com/gallery/storstrom_erling_1931.html
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#108852 - 10/16/07 01:03 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Solan]
MrMack MrMack Registered: 12/14/01 Posts: 9135 Loc: Central Texas	Chipper, I hate to not accept your statement that cars are not in competition at a VCCA Meet that has judging, the competition is apparent when there is a only one car or truck that get's a first place, in class, based on the number of points it receives during judging. It isn't much different than a county fair where the judges give points to each basket of tomatoes and the scores chose the winner. blue ribbon (1st) red ribbon (runner up) white ribbon (Third place) _________________________ Lone Star Region Chat Group Region member http://www.lsrclub.org Life's a long winding trail, ride a good horse!
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#108855 - 10/16/07 02:20 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Back Roads Back Roads Registered: 04/03/02 Posts: 1124 Loc: Beavercreek, Ohio	The real joke in our judging system is The Best of Show Award. The powers that be are given a list of the First Place Award vehicles and then they go pick one 4 cylinder era, one 6 cylinder era, one 8 cylinder era, and one commercial vehicle. I believe most of it depends on who the owner is, where they are from, or how rare the vehicle is. I received a Best of Show back in 1965 when there was only one Best of Show so this is not sower grapes. Just my opinion. I have seen several that I questioned. _________________________ See you Touring on the Back Roads.
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#108856 - 10/16/07 02:48 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Back Roads]
mike41 mike41 Oil Can Mechanic Registered: 04/29/06 Posts: 647 Loc: Redondo Beach CA	I've only attended 6 VCCA shows but it always makes since to me....who gets the awards. And so far it has not been me...but I agree with each of the decisions. Actually best of show in some events I've seen was voted on by the crowd. Sort of a "popular vote." Still make since. Michael41
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#108857 - 10/16/07 04:13 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Chipper]
Junkyard Dog Junkyard Dog Tech Advisor Registered: 11/23/01 Posts: 13589 Loc: Eagle Point, Oregon	Quote: First I must correct a misconception. VCCA Judging does not and never has compared one vehicle to another. Yes, that is how it is supposed to be, however "comparison judging" has happened at sanctioned VCCA meets at various times in the past. Hopefully, that issue has been corrected. $;\)$ $\:\)$ _________________________ The Mangy Old Mutt "If It's Not Junk.....It's Not Treasure!"
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#108859 - 10/16/07 05:43 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: Junkyard Dog]
42bill 42bill Registered: 09/19/03 Posts: 3348 Loc: Portland, OR	Whether it's 'subconsciously' or 'consciously,' I don't see how sort of 'comparing' one car to another car can be completely avoided. I will say nonetheless, there is a score sheet (judging form) and that is really the bottom line. In other words, EACH car should be judged on / against the judging form. NOW, if a judge 'uses' the judging form to 'make happen' what he / she thinks should happen..... Well, that's just flat out dirty pool. Wrong. Probably could actually be called cheating. As far as I'm concerned it should be each car 'against' (you might say) the judging form. I've haven't been a judge for 4-5 years. And haven't actually had a car judged probably in 10-12 years. When I was more 'active' in having a car of mine judged, I feel I was always treated fairly; but I've always 'won' whatever it was. So I suppose I would feel that way. Just my two cents..... Bill. _________________________ www.rdgsons.com/vcca/toyz.jpg
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#108873 - 10/16/07 06:56 PM Re: Help me understand [Re: MrMack]
Chipper Chipper Registered: 11/22/01 Posts: 4870 Loc: The Great State of TEXAS	You might consider it a competition but with the policy that vehicles that score within a set amount of points (don't remember how many) also receive a first place award it takes at least part of what you consider competition away. I think it is a ranking of vehicles and not a comparison of them. It would be different if one were picked as the standard and others compared to it. That fortunately is not the case. Glad to hear that all went well and you will only be on limited duty a couple of weeks. Looks like my girl friend is mending well also. Good news! _________________________ How Sweet the roar of a Chevy four!
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